1 1 PLANNING COMMISSION 10:00:15 2 COUNTY OF HAWAI'I 3 __________________________________ 4 In re Special Permit 5 Application of: 6 ALLIANCE REDWOODS CONFERENCE 7 GROUNDS, INC. (SPP 06-000033), 8 Applicant. 9 __________________________________ 10 11 HEARING 12 BEFORE: HEARINGS OFFICER SHERRY BRODER 13 14 Taken on behalf of the Applicant at the County of 15 Hawai'i, Department of Liquor Control, 101 Aupuni Street, 16 #230, Hilo, Hawai'i, commencing at 10:00 a.m. on February 6th, 17 2007, pursuant to Notice. 18 19 20 21 22 23 BEFORE: B. KANOELANI COCKETT 24 Certified Shorthand Reporter 25 HI CSR NO. 379, CA CSR NO. 7995 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 Hearings Officer: SHERRY P. BRODER, ESQ. 3 Davies Pacific Center 4 841 Bishop Street, Suite 800 5 Honolulu, Hawai'i 96813 6 broder@hawaii.rr.com 7 8 For Applicant: JEREL I. YAMAMOTO, ESQ. 9 Alliance Redwoods Nakamoto, Okamoto & Yamamoto 10 Conference 187 Kapi'olani Street 11 Grounds, Inc. Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 12 jerel@noyhawaii.com 13 14 For County of 15 Hawai'i: BOBBY JEAN LEITHEAD-TODD 16 Deputy Corporation Counsel 17 Department of Corporation Counsel 18 Hilo Lagoon Center 19 101 Aupuni Street, Suite 325 20 Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 21 bjtodd@co.hawaii.hi.us 22 23 24 25 3 1 Intervenor: JUSTIN KANOA WITHINGTON 2 KAMAKANI O KOHALA kanoa@cfht.hawaii.edu 3 OHANA, INC. 4 aka KAKO'O 5 6 Intervenor: JEAN SUNDERLAND 7 Pro se info@hawaii-island-retreat.com 8 (808)889-5061 9 10 Also Present: Norman Hayashi, Planning Program Manager 11 Phyllis Fujimoto, Staff Planner 12 Jeff Darrow, Staff Planner 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -o0o- 4 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESSES PAGE 3 JEFF DARROW 8, 129 4 KATHY POMEROY 28 5 LANI BOWMAN 30 6 JAMES BLAKE 39, 124 7 BERNARD SULLIVAN 69 8 BRIAN T. NISHIMURA 95 9 JEAN SUNDERLAND 132 10 MIKE ISAACS 147 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -o0o- 5 1 EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION (not attached) 2 APPLICANT PAGE 3 6 - 17 Signed statements of James Blake, Bernard 27 4 Sullivan, Brian T. Nishimura, Kathy Pomeroy 5 and Lani Bowman, and photographs on the 6 exhibit list 7 18 List of native Hawaiian organizations that 155 8 the applicant consulted with 9 10 COUNTY PAGE 11 C Colored zoning map 9 12 D Site plan 9 13 E Mailout list 156 14 F The County's Real Property Listing which 156 15 shows the mailing address as P.O. Box 63 16 G A letter dated January 17th from the 157 17 Carlsmith Ball law firm to Mr. Hayashi 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -o0o- 6 1 (Reporter's Disclosure was displayed.) 2 PROCEEDINGS 10:00:18 3 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: We're going to call this 10:00:18 4 hearing to order now. 10:00:19 5 I'm the hearings officer, Sherry Broder, and I'm 10:00:20 6 going to ask that each of the parties have their 10:00:22 7 representative state their name and the party that they 10:00:25 8 represent so the record will be complete. 10:00:28 9 Could we start with you, Mr. Yamamoto? 10:00:30 10 MR. YAMAMOTO: Jerel Yamamoto representing 10:00:32 11 Applicant, Alliance Redwoods Conference Grounds, Inc. 10:00:34 12 Also present with me are James Blake, the executive 10:00:39 13 director of Alliance Redwoods, and Brian Nishimura, the 10:00:42 14 applicant's representative. 10:00:47 15 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 10:00:52 16 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Jean Sunderland. I'm 10:00:53 17 representing myself. 10:00:55 18 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Good morning. My name is Bobby 10:00:59 19 Jean Leithead-Todd. I'm deputy corporation counsel with the 10:01:01 20 County of Hawai'i, and I'm representing the planning director, 10:01:05 21 and seated with me is Jeff Darrow, a planning officer in the 10:01:09 22 department. 10:01:16 23 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. We did have an 10:01:18 24 Intervenor Kako'o. However, they have not appeared yet. 10:01:22 25 Although the notice in the newspaper stated that the hearing 10:01:27 7 1 was to begin at 9:30, in the discussions that we had prior to 10:01:30 2 this hearing in the prehearing conference we had decided that 10:01:37 3 it was going to start at 10:00. So in an abundance of caution 10:01:42 4 and to give Kako'o every opportunity to participate, we waited 10:01:47 5 to start this hearing until ten, and I note that they are not 10:01:52 6 here. 10:01:55 7 What we're going to do for the order of the hearing 10:01:57 8 is first we're going to have Jeff Darrow, who was with the 10:02:00 9 Planning Department, explain the two maps that are on the 10:02:03 10 board. And then after he is done, we will have an opportunity 10:02:05 11 for any public witnesses who wish to testify. 10:02:10 12 At the present time we do not -- we are not aware of 10:02:16 13 any public witnesses that want to testify, but I will give one 10:02:18 14 last call for public witnesses, and then after that I will 10:02:22 15 give the parties an opportunity to give an opening statement 10:02:25 16 if anybody wishes to give one. It's not required. 10:02:29 17 The parties have agreed that the written report of 10:02:35 18 the Planning Department will be submitted in the record and 10:02:39 19 that we won't repeat the findings that are contained therein, 10:02:42 20 but the witnesses will be available for cross-examination. 10:02:53 21 We'll follow the same procedure with Mr. Yamamoto's clients. 10:02:55 22 We'll have the written statements accepted into the record and 10:03:01 23 we will -- Mr. Yamamoto will make each of those, each of the 10:03:07 24 person's making those statements, available for 10:03:12 25 cross-examination. 10:03:16 8 1 In addition, Mr. Yamamoto has indicated that there 10:03:17 2 were some concerns raised by Ms. Sunderland that have come up 10:03:20 3 since he did his witness statements, and we're going to allow 10:03:25 4 him to have the witnesses address those concerns in their oral 10:03:29 5 testimony, and then Ms. Sunderland will call her witnesses. 10:03:35 6 Okay. So let's begin. 10:03:40 7 And, Ms. Leithead-Todd, do you want to have Mr. Jeff 10:03:44 8 Darrow explain the maps? Should we swear him in? 10:03:50 9 Could you swear the witness, please. 10:03:55 10 JEFF DARROW, 10:04:01 11 Having been first duly sworn, 10:04:01 12 testified upon his oath as follows: 10:04:05 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Darrow, we're 10:04:05 14 going to have you explain the two maps that are on the board. 10:04:06 15 Are those marked, Ms. Leithead-Todd, as exhibits? 10:04:09 16 Do they have numbers on them? 10:04:12 17 MR. DARROW: They do not. 10:04:13 18 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: They do not. 10:04:15 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: They do not. 10:04:16 20 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: They have a -- 10:04:19 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Shall we mark them next in 10:04:20 22 order? 10:04:22 23 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Maybe they should be C and D. 10:04:22 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 10:04:25 25 MR. DARROW: C, D. 10:04:25 9 1 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So Exhibit C is what? 10:04:27 2 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Make that the colored. 10:04:29 3 MR. DARROW: Location map. 10:04:31 4 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Location map. 10:04:33 5 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 10:04:34 6 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: And D the -- 10:04:35 7 THE WITNESS: Site plan. 10:04:36 8 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Site plan. 10:04:39 9 THE WITNESS: Then we can actually mark them. 10:04:41 10 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So you'll make sure that when 10:04:46 11 they are submitted in the record that they are properly 10:04:48 12 marked? 10:04:51 13 THE WITNESS: (Witness nods head.) 10:04:51 14 (County Exhibits C & D 10:04:51 15 were marked for identification.) 10:04:52 16 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Thank you. 10:04:52 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Hearings Officer Broder. 10:04:53 18 If I can have the attention of the hearings officer, 10:04:55 19 applicants and intervenors in this case, this is the location 10:04:58 20 map. The area of this application is within the North Kohala 10:05:03 21 District of Hawai'i. More specifically, we are looking at the 10:05:06 22 Hawi area and the Kapa'au area. This white line moving in an 10:05:12 23 east-west direction is the Akoni Pule Highway. We have Union 10:05:16 24 Mill Road identified on this particular area of the map in 10:05:23 25 between Kapa'au and Hawi. 10:05:27 10 1 Just for reference, the colors on the map indicate 10:05:29 2 the different types of zoning, county zoning. The dark 10:05:31 3 colored, green, dark green colors identify agricultural 10:05:36 4 20-acre county zoning. The yellow, both the light colored 10:05:40 5 yellow and the darker yellow, represent residential zoning. 10:05:44 6 These are located mainly along the highway. You'll see 10:05:49 7 certain areas of pink and purple shadings. Those represent 10:05:53 8 commercial zonings in the area. 10:05:59 9 The applicant in this case, Alliance Redwoods 10:06:01 10 Conference Grounds, Inc., is requesting a special permit to 10:06:06 11 allow the establishment of a camping and retreat center on 10:06:08 12 approximately six acres of land on a 36-plus-acre property. 10:06:13 13 Access to the property would be from what is considered Union 10:06:19 14 Market Road or a road near Union Market. That would be in 10:06:24 15 this general location. 10:06:28 16 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Oh, one moment, Mr. Darrow. 10:06:29 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Yes. 10:06:32 18 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: We have a note for Ms. Broder 10:06:32 19 saying that the party from Kohala for the contested case 10:06:36 20 hearing is on their way and will arrive in 15 minutes. 10:06:39 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. I think that we can 10:06:44 22 continue with Mr. Darrow's testimony because he's just being 10:06:45 23 informative, and we did wait until 10:00, and so I think that 10:06:52 24 we can proceed with the testimony. We won't have any -- we 10:07:00 25 won't begin any cross-examination until they get here. 10:07:06 11 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Again, speaking to the 10:07:09 2 access to the property, this will be through an access 10:07:11 3 easement called Union Market Road and located in this 10:07:14 4 particular area. It's my understanding at this time this road 10:07:18 5 has not been improved. Access will come down to another 10:07:20 6 access easement called Pratt Road and then to another access 10:07:25 7 easement that is for these properties in this particular area. 10:07:29 8 The yellow dot signifies the location of the 10:07:34 9 application. The red line running in an east-west direction 10:07:39 10 is identifying the special management area. 10:07:44 11 Just for reference, there was a previous special 10:07:47 12 permit and special management area use permit also approved in 10:07:53 13 this particular area. This was for Robert Watkins and Jane 10:07:58 14 Sunderland for a 16-room Hawaiian Permaculture Retreat and 10:08:03 15 that, again, is located just makai of this particular 10:08:08 16 application. 10:08:11 17 This is a continued hearing from September 22nd, 10:08:12 18 2006. At that time the Planning Commission granted standing 10:08:17 19 for Jean Sunderland as well as Kamakani O Kohala Ohana, Inc., 10:08:20 20 otherwise known as Kako'o. 10:08:29 21 Referring to the site plan, the access easement to 10:08:32 22 the property is identified on the left side of the map. The 10:08:39 23 area identified in blue is the six-acre portion of the 10:08:43 24 property that will be utilized for the application area. The 10:08:48 25 applicant is requesting as part of the camping and retreat 10:08:52 12 1 facility 14 cabins identified in black dots, four open-area, 10:08:57 2 open gazebos identified in black line white dots, also a 10:09:05 3 meeting pavilion with kitchen and restrooms, also four farm 10:09:12 4 worker staff cabins identified in black dots in the right side 10:09:18 5 of the project area. 10:09:22 6 Additionally, the applicant is proposing to 10:09:23 7 incorporate agricultural activities. We have fruit orchards, 10:09:28 8 palm groves and other types of agricultural activities that 10:09:33 9 will be associated with this activity. 10:09:37 10 On ground at this time there is a residence located 10:09:38 11 in this area on purple. 10:09:43 12 Are there any questions? 10:09:48 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: To whom does the access road 10:09:54 14 belong? 10:09:57 15 THE WITNESS: The access road is a shared access 10:09:58 16 road which I believe is -- it travels through several 10:10:00 17 properties. So I believe the actual ownership would belong to 10:10:05 18 the owner of that property, but access is granted to those 10:10:10 19 that need to utilize it to the properties more makai. 10:10:16 20 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So it's not a county road? 10:10:19 21 THE WITNESS: No. 10:10:21 22 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So the prior permit that was 10:10:28 23 given to Ms. Sunderland, is that -- that's in the special 10:10:31 24 management area, but this application is not; is that correct? 10:10:35 25 THE WITNESS: There is a portion of the property 10:10:40 13 1 that does touch the special management area, but it appears to 10:10:43 2 be outside of the project area. 10:10:46 3 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: And how about the Sunderland 10:10:50 4 permit, was that in the special management area? 10:10:51 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, ma'am. 10:10:54 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Does anybody else have any 10:11:04 7 questions? 10:11:06 8 MR. YAMAMOTO: Applicant has no questions. 10:11:06 9 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 10:11:08 10 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: No questions. 10:11:10 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Leithead-Todd? 10:11:13 12 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No, nothing further. 10:11:14 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10:11:16 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So the next item on 10:11:17 15 the agenda is to have opening statements. 10:11:20 16 Does anybody wish to have an opening statement? 10:11:26 17 MR. YAMAMOTO: Are you going to add any second call 10:11:32 18 for public testimony? 10:11:36 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Yes, yes, and I'm making a 10:11:39 20 second call for any public testimony. 10:11:41 21 Is there anybody who wishes to testify from the 10:11:42 22 public? Okay. We haven't heard any indication since 9:30 10:11:45 23 this morning that anybody from the public might be interested 10:11:52 24 in testifying, so I'm going to find that there is no public 10:11:54 25 testimony. 10:12:00 14 1 Okay. Does anybody wish to give an opening 10:12:00 2 statement? 10:12:04 3 MR. YAMAMOTO: Brief one on behalf of Applicant. 10:12:05 4 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Brief one, okay. 10:12:08 5 OPENING STATEMENT 10:12:10 6 MR. YAMAMOTO: Ms. Broder, parties, this contested 10:12:11 7 case involves an application for a special permit to develop 10:12:14 8 and construct this camping and retreat center on six acres of 10:12:18 9 land in North Kohala. The issues in this case are, one, 10:12:23 10 whether or not a special permit is the proper means to allow 10:12:29 11 the type of use proposed by the applicant; two, we are raising 10:12:33 12 whether or not the parties who have petitioned for contested 10:12:37 13 cases should be allowed to continue with standing; and, three, 10:12:42 14 whether or not the applicant has satisfied the legal 10:12:48 15 requirements found in Rule 6-6 and Rule 6.3(b)5, A through F 10:12:51 16 of the Rules of the Planning Commission. 10:12:57 17 I believe the evidence will show through both 10:13:00 18 testimony and through the documents that the special permit is 10:13:02 19 a proper means to allow the type of use proposed herein, and 10:13:07 20 we've cited to Madame Hearings Officer the case of Malama 10:13:13 21 Mahulepu vs. Land Use Commission at 71 Hawai'i 332 in 1990 10:13:20 22 where the Hawai'i Supreme Court has ruled on this particular 10:13:25 23 point. We also reference Section 205-6, Hawai'i Revised 10:13:29 24 Statutes, which allows special permits on agricultural lands 10:13:35 25 even if the proposed activity is not permissible -- is not a 10:13:40 15 1 permitted use under the statute. 10:13:45 2 With regard to the critical issue, which is whether 10:13:53 3 or not we have satisfied the standards in Rule 6.6 and 6.3, I 10:13:56 4 think the evidence will show in this particular case that the 10:14:01 5 proposed use by the applicant is an unusual and reasonable use 10:14:04 6 of agricultural lands. It's an innovative and creative way to 10:14:11 7 keep agricultural lands productive. Although there will be 10:14:15 8 campgrounds as part of the use, the rest of the land would be 10:14:21 9 retained in agricultural use. We're not dealing with a hotel 10:14:25 10 or some concrete monstrosity. We're dealing with cabins, a 10:14:29 11 kitchen, restroom facilities. We're dealing with programs 10:14:35 12 that will be ag related, available for youth, and we believe 10:14:38 13 that the use is appropriate and consistent with agricultural 10:14:44 14 lands. This type of use is certainly better than the lands 10:14:47 15 just being there nonproductive. 10:14:51 16 We believe the evidence will show that the use will 10:14:55 17 promote the effectiveness and the objective of Chapter 205 in 10:14:57 18 that unused ag lands will once again become productive through 10:15:01 19 this innovative blend of development and the lands will retain 10:15:06 20 it's central character through agricultural activities in 10:15:11 21 terms of orchards, gardens, pasture. 10:15:18 22 The lands in this area are class B and class E soil. 10:15:20 23 Some are good for ag, some are really bad for ag. This 10:15:25 24 property is surrounded by gulches and a lot of vegetation, and 10:15:29 25 the proposed activity is also consistent with the objectives 10:15:34 16 1 of the County General Plan in, you know, we're not seeking to 10:15:37 2 rezone. We're keeping the area in ag and we're not trying to 10:15:42 3 make a high-class development or a high-class resort. It's 10:15:47 4 intended to be affordable, rustic, alternative providing 10:15:52 5 campgrounds for youth groups and other groups which has a 10:15:56 6 value and has a need in our community. 10:16:00 7 The testimony you will hear and will see will show 10:16:04 8 that the camps have many benefits. So for all those reasons 10:16:08 9 and the evidence that will be submitted, Applicant asks that 10:16:13 10 the special permit be granted, and that the conditions 10:16:17 11 proposed by the Planning Department is acceptable to 10:16:24 12 Applicant. 10:16:27 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 10:16:29 14 Yamamoto. 10:16:30 15 Ms. Leithead-Todd, do you have any statements? 10:16:30 16 (Interruption in the proceedings.) 10:16:36 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Just a minute. 10:16:40 18 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Your Honor, this is Kako'o. 10:16:47 19 I apologize for our lateness. 10:16:50 20 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: I'm Sherry Broder, the 10:16:51 21 hearings officer, and you are? 10:16:53 22 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Kanoa Withington from 10:16:55 23 Kako'o. 10:16:57 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Are you going to be the party 10:16:58 25 monitoring your group in calling the witnesses? 10:16:59 17 1 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Yes. 10:17:02 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So you can sit here. 10:17:03 3 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Great, thank you. 10:17:06 4 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: And just briefly bring you 10:17:08 5 up to date. 10:17:10 6 We did wait until 10:00 for you because I know the 10:17:10 7 notice in the paper said 9:30, but on the phone we said ten, 10:17:14 8 and so in an abundance of caution to give you as much time as 10:17:19 9 possible we did wait until ten. So we started the hearing at 10:17:22 10 ten, and Mr. Jeff Darrow explained the two maps on the board 10:17:27 11 which show -- one shows the zoning, that's Exhibit C, and 10:17:33 12 Exhibit D shows the plan for this particular application for 10:17:38 13 special permit. And then we called for public witnesses, and 10:17:43 14 there were no public witnesses. 10:17:50 15 I see that you walked in with two people and I'm 10:17:52 16 assuming that they are with you and they are your witnesses; 10:17:54 17 is that right? 10:17:58 18 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: That's correct. 10:17:58 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. And so there were no 10:17:58 20 public witnesses. 10:18:00 21 Then I have offered the parties an opportunity to 10:18:01 22 give an opening statement which would be a summary of their 10:18:03 23 case, and Mr. Yamamoto just gave a statement and we were just 10:18:06 24 asking Ms. Leithead-Todd if she wished to give a statement, 10:18:11 25 and then we'll give Ms. Sunderland the opportunity if she 10:18:14 18 1 wishes, and then you would have the opportunity to give an 10:18:19 2 opening statement as well, but it's totally optional, so if 10:18:22 3 you don't want to do it, you don't have to do it. 10:18:26 4 Okay? 10:18:29 5 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: All right. Thank you. 10:18:29 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So, and then we've decided 10:18:30 7 that we would submit the planning director's report and we 10:18:33 8 won't have the Planning Department testify to all the details 10:18:39 9 in that report. We'll submit -- accept that report as 10:18:43 10 evidence and then Ms. Leithead-Todd will make the witnesses 10:18:47 11 available for cross-examination. Mr. Yamamoto is going to do 10:18:51 12 the same thing with the witnesses and the written testimony 10:18:55 13 that he has, so we will accept his written testimony into the 10:18:58 14 record and give you an opportunity to cross-examination any of 10:19:02 15 those witness, and then you may call your witnesses. I know 10:19:06 16 you didn't submit any written testimony in advance, but you 10:19:11 17 will be able to call your witnesses to give oral testimony. 10:19:16 18 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. I think we submitted 10:19:19 19 five written witness statements. 10:19:21 20 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: You submitted five witness 10:19:23 21 statements? I'm sorry, okay. 10:19:24 22 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Four or five. 10:19:29 23 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. I have them right 10:19:30 24 here. 10:19:31 25 Okay. So you would be able to do the same thing, 10:19:33 19 1 then; submit your written witness statements and have your 10:19:35 2 witnesses available for any cross-examination. 10:19:37 3 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. 10:19:41 4 MR. YAMAMOTO: Just for the record, when were these 10:19:43 5 statements sent out, because I don't recall getting it? 10:19:46 6 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I don't have a copy and neither 10:19:48 7 does my department. 10:19:50 8 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Did you bring copies with 10:19:51 9 you? 10:19:53 10 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I did, but only one copy of 10:19:53 11 each. 10:19:56 12 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Then let's take a 10:19:56 13 short break and I would ask that Ms. Leithead-Todd make copies 10:19:58 14 and circulate them to everybody. 10:20:01 15 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: If I can have a set, I'll take 10:20:03 16 them upstairs. 10:20:05 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: And also, I don't know, did 10:20:06 18 they get filed, Mr. Hayashi? 10:20:08 19 MR. HAYASHI: Sorry, just walked in. 10:20:13 20 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: He's got witness statements, 10:20:14 21 Mr. -- Kako'o does, and so we're going to xerox them for 10:20:15 22 everybody because people didn't get them, so I just want to 10:20:19 23 make sure they will get filed with the Planning Department. 10:20:21 24 MR. HAYASHI: They will become part of the file. 10:20:25 25 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 10:20:28 20 1 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: These are the five. 10:20:31 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Maybe you could just 10:20:36 3 have somebody xerox them for us and we'll continue with the 10:20:37 4 hearing while they are being xeroxed. 10:20:43 5 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I guess at least ten, yeah? 10:20:47 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Yeah, okay. 10:20:51 7 Even though they are late filed, I will allow your 10:21:04 8 witness statements for Kako'o. 10:21:06 9 Okay. Ms. Leithead-Todd, do you wish to make an 10:21:09 10 opening statement? 10:21:12 11 OPENING STATEMENT 10:21:13 12 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Just a brief statement that the 10:21:13 13 Planning Department received the application, reviewed it 10:21:16 14 against its guidelines for special use permits, and basically 10:21:20 15 the planning director recommended approval of the request. 10:21:25 16 The recommendation, though, however, has a reservation that 10:21:30 17 the planning director reserves the right to modify or alter 10:21:34 18 the recommendation based upon any additional information that 10:21:37 19 may come out through the public hearing process. And I might 10:21:41 20 note that in our submittals on our exhibits, they've been 10:21:58 21 updated from the original file because there were additional 10:22:08 22 exhibits that were previously not attached as more letters 10:22:14 23 came in. So they are not necessarily in the order they are 10:22:20 24 tabbed, but I think it's like No. 36 and 37 are in different 10:22:26 25 places. They are not, like, 36 is before Exhibit 8. 10:22:31 21 1 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Is this the document you're 10:22:40 2 referring to (indicating)? 10:22:42 3 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Yeah, the one that we submitted 10:22:44 4 for the purposes of the hearing is a little bit different than 10:22:46 5 what was originally in the file that went to the Planning 10:22:49 6 Commission, and that's because as additional letters came in 10:22:52 7 from various agencies, they were added to our exhibit. 10:22:55 8 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So the only change are 10:22:59 9 additions? 10:23:03 10 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Additional exhibits, yeah. The 10:23:04 11 substance of the recommendation remains the same. It's just 10:23:06 12 that we've attached additional letters as they've come in from 10:23:08 13 different agencies. 10:23:12 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: But they are all agency 10:23:13 15 letters? None of them are public letters? 10:23:15 16 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: It's a little bit of both. 10:23:18 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So there's some from 10:23:20 18 the agencies and some from the public? 10:23:22 19 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Yeah. So if you look at the 10:23:25 20 background report on pages 5, 6 and 7, 8 and 9? 10:23:33 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 10:23:50 22 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: You'll see a list of various 10:23:51 23 letters -- 10:23:54 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 10:23:55 25 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: -- that have come in. 10:23:56 22 1 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: All right. So that list went 10:23:57 2 through AA, and everything after AA on your current submittal 10:23:59 3 is new? 10:24:03 4 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: That list actually goes through 10:24:07 5 Exhibit 44, I think. Oh, HH on this list. 10:24:12 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Right, from BB to HH is new, 10:24:19 7 right? 10:24:23 8 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Um-hum, yes. 10:24:23 9 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: All right. Is there anything 10:24:24 10 else you'd like to add? 10:24:25 11 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No, that's all. 10:24:26 12 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Ms. Sunderland, would 10:24:27 13 you like to give an opening statement? 10:24:29 14 OPENING STATEMENT 10:24:30 15 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Briefly I will. 10:24:30 16 I have requested and been granted a contested case, 10:24:32 17 and our contested case is based on two parts. One is HRS 10:24:37 18 Chapter 205 states the desired uses shall not adversely affect 10:24:44 19 surrounding properties. Through our testimony, we will show 10:24:50 20 how this conference center may indeed affect surrounding 10:24:55 21 properties. 10:25:02 22 The second issue is Rule 6-3, "The petitioner shall 10:25:05 23 mail a Notice of Application and Hearing Notice to owners of 10:25:12 24 interest in properties within 300 feet of the parameter of the 10:25:15 25 property." That was not done to two particular neighbors. So 10:25:19 23 1 those are the two issues that we are in concern about. 10:25:25 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Kako'o? 10:25:33 3 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Yes, Your Honor, I 10:25:37 4 understand that the schedule for prehearing briefs is long 10:25:38 5 past, but I have prepared a very, very short brief, and would 10:25:42 6 you allow me to just sort of -- 10:25:45 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: To what? 10:25:49 8 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: A prehearing brief from 10:25:50 9 Kako'o. It's just a brief concerning our brief. 10:25:52 10 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: You want to submit that right 10:25:55 11 now? 10:25:57 12 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I'd like to. I have copies 10:25:58 13 for everyone. 10:26:00 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Did you give that to Ms. 10:26:01 15 Leithead-Todd to make the witness statements? 10:26:02 16 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Did you only bring one copy? 10:26:06 17 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I have copies for everyone. 10:26:10 18 I have ten copies. 10:26:11 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: We will allow you to 10:26:12 20 distribute those. 10:26:14 21 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: (Complies.) 10:26:19 22 Would anyone else like copies? 10:26:30 23 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Make sure that Mr. Hayashi 10:26:32 24 gets a copy. 10:26:33 25 Do you wish to make any opening statement? 10:26:41 24 1 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I do. 10:26:44 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 10:26:45 3 OPENING STATEMENT 10:26:46 4 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: One thing I just want to 10:26:46 5 clarify on Kako'o's position. First of all, I'll clarify with 10:26:48 6 those who aren't familiar with Kako'o that we're a community 10:26:52 7 environmental group based out of North Kohala, and our primary 10:26:55 8 mission is the proper management of our community's resources, 10:26:59 9 which is why we have an interest in this case here, but I'd 10:27:03 10 also like to point out that we don't really have any objection 10:27:08 11 to the spirit of what the application proposes to do, and we 10:27:12 12 recognize and acknowledge that it has a lot of community 10:27:16 13 support. 10:27:20 14 Our objection is only that it occurs on important 10:27:20 15 agricultural land without due process for the conversion of 10:27:24 16 the use of the land, and I think we also object to the use of 10:27:30 17 special permits for a project of this size. We don't feel 10:27:33 18 that they properly addressed the concerns that could arise 10:27:36 19 from use of land this way. 10:27:41 20 We really -- we object in one part legally. We feel 10:27:44 21 that -- and also from just a pure planning perspective, we 10:27:52 22 feel that we're aware of the case, the Malama Mahulepu case 10:27:57 23 that was cited as a precedent, but we also maintain that a 10:28:03 24 rational reading of the Chapter 205, Hawai'i Revised Statutes, 10:28:09 25 is fairly clear. And since we cannot accept the precedent for 10:28:14 25 1 ourselves to have the application to this case because it 10:28:23 2 doesn't appear to make sense, when we read the law the 10:28:26 3 conclusion is that special permits, very literally, shall not 10:28:28 4 conflict with any part of this chapter. And another part of 10:28:35 5 the chapter, Section 205-4.5(6), which exclusively prohibits 10:28:38 6 overnight camps and I know this is the issue which the 10:28:45 7 precedent is intended to address, but we also maintain that a 10:28:48 8 rational reading of the law is fairly different than what the 10:28:52 9 applicant intends to do with the precedent case. 10:28:57 10 We also have a couple of minor points about how the 10:29:03 11 permit was processed, mostly about how the Planning Commission 10:29:09 12 and the Planning Department handled the process. It's our 10:29:14 13 understanding that a special permit on important agricultural 10:29:18 14 land needs to be approved by the LUC, but we didn't receive 10:29:22 15 any documentation of approval by the LUC. We only have in our 10:29:26 16 possession a copy of an e-mail from a staff member at the LUC 10:29:31 17 which describes some concerns about the application that we 10:29:35 18 share and we agree, but we didn't see any form of approval. 10:29:38 19 We also have concerns about planning. We feel that 10:29:42 20 the use of special permits to effect projects of this size 10:29:47 21 circumvent the -- what we would consider to be good planning 10:29:52 22 practice. We also hold that the proximity of another special 10:29:57 23 permit which has been approved is not really grounds for a 10:30:07 24 precedent in this case but, rather, a sign that special 10:30:11 25 permits like that don't take into consideration cumulative 10:30:16 26 1 impacts. These parcels of land which were sold in a group 10:30:20 2 were never intended for resort or a retreat-type development. 10:30:26 3 They are really key agricultural lands, and the use of special 10:30:32 4 permits avoids taking into account cumulative impacts like 10:30:36 5 other special permits in the area. 10:30:43 6 We also have some points about planning, sorry, as 10:30:45 7 it relates to the community development planning, the Hawai'i 10:30:51 8 County General Plan. We don't agree with the applicant's 10:30:54 9 reading of the community development plan. For example, we 10:30:57 10 acknowledge that the app. plan does indicate that this area 10:31:01 11 shall be maintained for agriculture, and we also acknowledge 10:31:04 12 this does encourage the use of retreat and convention-type 10:31:10 13 development, but we don't follow logically that, therefore, 10:31:14 14 that sort of development should occur on important 10:31:19 15 agricultural land. 10:31:21 16 We also don't agree that this sort of development is 10:31:24 17 in line with the County General Plan either, which addresses 10:31:30 18 rather specifically the incautious conversion of agricultural 10:31:36 19 lands for other purposes and an outlined interpretation of 10:31:43 20 that is in that, and that's all I have to say. 10:31:47 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: And I thank you very much. 10:31:50 22 Should we have the applicant go first and call your 10:31:54 23 witnesses? 10:31:58 24 MR. YAMAMOTO: That would be fine. 10:31:59 25 Before we start, I guess how do you want us to 10:32:02 27 1 offer? The statements would be admitted into evidence and 10:32:08 2 along with the photo, the photographs that we had circulated? 10:32:13 3 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Yes. So the statements would 10:32:18 4 be admitted into evidence along with any exhibits that went 10:32:20 5 with those statements. So I guess you should probably inquire 10:32:23 6 which exhibits are supposed to go with that, and since we are 10:32:29 7 just receiving the testimony and since we didn't have this 10:32:36 8 testimony from before -- 10:32:44 9 MR. YAMAMOTO: That's correct. 10:32:45 10 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. It looks like it was 10:32:49 11 only sent to me, according to the e-mail. So I will allow you 10:32:54 12 during the lunch hour to see if there is anything additional 10:33:03 13 in these testimonies that you wish to have your witnesses 10:33:08 14 address. 10:33:14 15 Okay? 10:33:14 16 MR. YAMAMOTO: (Attorney nods head.) 10:33:14 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So that if you finish, if we 10:33:15 18 finish with your witnesses before lunch, you can call the 10:33:19 19 witnesses back. 10:33:24 20 MR. YAMAMOTO: Okay. Thank you. So for purposes of 10:33:25 21 today's hearing, I would offer into evidence the signed 10:33:27 22 statements of James Blake, Bernard Sullivan, Brian T. 10:33:35 23 Nishimura, Kathy Pomeroy and Lani Bowman, and then photographs 10:33:40 24 that are listed on our exhibit list, Exhibits 6 through 17. 10:33:45 25 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Are there any 10:33:52 28 1 objections? 10:33:53 2 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: (Attorney shakes head.) 10:33:54 3 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: (Shakes head.) 10:33:55 4 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Hearing no objections, 10:33:55 5 I will admit all of the witness statements and the Exhibits 6 10:33:57 6 through 17 as offered by Mr. Yamamoto. 10:34:01 7 MR. YAMAMOTO: Okay. 10:34:06 8 (Applicant's Exhibit Nos. 6 through 17 10:34:06 9 and statements were admitted into evidence.) 10:34:06 10 MR. YAMAMOTO: At this time I'd like to try to get 10:34:09 11 my two lay witnesses done, so if I can call Kathy Pomeroy as 10:34:10 12 my first witness. 10:34:15 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Yes. 10:34:16 14 Would you swear the witness, both, please. 10:34:24 15 KATHY POMEROY, 10:34:31 16 Having been first duly sworn, 10:34:31 17 testified upon her oath as follows: 10:34:31 18 MR. YAMAMOTO: Ms. Pomeroy, we've submitted your 10:34:38 19 statement into evidence at this time, all right, so basically 10:34:40 20 you would be subject to cross-examination. 10:34:43 21 So we will submit on her testimony. 10:34:45 22 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 10:34:45 23 Q. Okay. Are you an adjacent owner -- 10:34:48 24 A. No. 10:34:59 25 Q. -- to the property? Okay. 10:35:00 29 1 Where exactly is your property in relation to this 10:35:02 2 property? 10:35:08 3 A. Right here. 10:35:11 4 MR. YAMAMOTO: Let the record reflect that she's 10:35:14 5 pointing to an area that's mauka of the applicant's site, and 10:35:17 6 a little south of the applicant's site. 10:35:22 7 MR. DARROW: Correct. 10:35:26 8 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Could you mark on the 10:35:29 9 map with a "KP" where, approximately where your property is? 10:35:31 10 MR. HAYASHI: (Complies.) 10:35:39 11 MR. DARROW: Just write on there "KP". 10:35:44 12 THE WITNESS: (Witness complies.) 10:35:48 13 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 10:35:48 14 Q. Okay. You don't use the Union Market Road, do you, 10:35:50 15 for access? 10:35:54 16 A. Yes, sometimes. 10:35:55 17 Q. So you can access your property off the Union Market 10:35:56 18 Road? 10:35:59 19 A. Yes, um-hum. 10:35:59 20 Q. Do you have an easement over that road? 10:36:05 21 A. Yes. 10:36:08 22 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Are there any 10:36:34 23 questions? 10:36:36 24 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: (Indicating.) 10:36:38 25 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 10:36:38 30 1 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 10:36:40 2 Q. Ms. Pomeroy, you and your husband have an active 10:36:41 3 farm; is that correct? 10:36:43 4 A. Starting. 10:36:44 5 Q. Yeah. And how many acres now do you have under 10:36:45 6 cultivation? 10:36:48 7 A. Probably, all together, about two acres, but it's 10:36:49 8 not intensive agriculture right now. 10:36:54 9 Q. Okay. Two acres under cultivation, and the rest of 10:36:56 10 your land you're using for? 10:37:00 11 A. There's about seven acres in livestock. 10:37:01 12 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Livestock, okay, thank you. 10:37:04 13 No further questions. 10:37:10 14 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I have no further questions. 10:37:12 15 THE WITNESS: That's it? 10:37:15 16 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: I guess so. 10:37:16 17 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No questions. 10:37:17 18 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Anybody else have any 10:37:18 19 questions? Kako'o? Ms. Leithead-Todd? 10:37:19 20 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I have no questions. 10:37:22 21 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10:37:24 22 MR. YAMAMOTO: Our next witness is Lani Bowman. 10:37:30 23 LANI BOWMAN, 10:37:48 24 Having been first duly sworn, 10:37:48 25 testified upon her oath as follows: 10:37:51 31 1 MR. YAMAMOTO: Ms. Bowman has submitted a written 10:37:51 2 statement and we submit Ms. Bowman and make her available for 10:37:54 3 cross-examination. 10:37:58 4 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Your Honor, may I ask a 10:38:11 5 question? 10:38:13 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Yes. 10:38:14 7 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 10:38:15 8 Q. Ms. Bowman? 10:38:16 9 A. Yes. 10:38:16 10 Q. I don't have a copy of your written testimony, but I 10:38:17 11 do have a copy of your statements at the Planning Commission 10:38:19 12 hearing, so would you just give me a brief summary of what 10:38:23 13 your written statement was? 10:38:28 14 MR. YAMAMOTO: For the record, I left a copy of 10:38:29 15 the -- 10:38:31 16 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: It's included in here? 10:38:31 17 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Yes. 10:38:33 18 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I'm sorry. 10:38:33 19 MR. YAMAMOTO: Yes, yes. 10:38:34 20 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Then you can ignore that 10:38:36 21 question and I'll just catch up later. 10:38:37 22 Q. But, you know, the only question I really have for 10:38:40 23 you on Project Venture was what the importance of things like 10:38:44 24 swimming pools were to the activities that you planned? 10:38:49 25 A. We swim a lot. Just to answer that, swimming is an 10:38:55 32 1 important part of our camp, and this summer we didn't have a 10:39:02 2 pool, so we put up just like a plastic pool, but we have been 10:39:07 3 camping many places where we don't have pools, so we -- I 10:39:11 4 don't know that we do a lot of water things. 10:39:16 5 Q. Yeah, yeah. 10:39:19 6 A. So it's not crucial. 10:39:20 7 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: That's all. 10:39:24 8 THE WITNESS: But they do enjoy it. 10:39:25 9 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I'm sure they do. 10:39:27 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer that. 10:39:28 11 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: So would I. 10:39:30 12 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 10:39:32 13 BY INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: 10:39:32 14 Q. First of all -- 10:39:34 15 A. Yes. 10:39:36 16 Q. -- thank you so much for your ongoing commitment to 10:39:36 17 our community. You are to be commended. 10:39:40 18 Can you please tell me the size of the Project 10:39:43 19 Venture through the years? I know it varies. Your smallest 10:39:46 20 number and size has been? 10:39:49 21 A. Probably 35, 30. 10:39:50 22 Q. Is what you usually have? 10:39:54 23 A. Well, that's smallest. 10:39:56 24 Q. Uh-huh. 10:39:57 25 A. As far as enrolled this year, we have 52, I think. 10:39:58 33 1 So about at least, you know, between half and three-quarters 10:40:03 2 of the 7th grade class. 10:40:07 3 Q. Okay. 10:40:09 4 A. But we also have a lot of service staff that now 10:40:09 5 through the five years are with us when we camp. 10:40:13 6 Q. Okay. And of those 50 -- 10:40:15 7 A. Um-hum. 10:40:19 8 Q. -- people that are enrolled, how many actually go 10:40:19 9 camping with you? 10:40:23 10 A. At our last summer camp I think there were about 20 10:40:23 11 campers and about 15 service staff. I think if we had -- and 10:40:29 12 you can take more. The program seems to be growing each year. 10:40:36 13 It gets -- you know, it fluctuates, but -- and then we have, 10:40:41 14 yeah, 15 which would be service staff, and we have a high 10:40:44 15 ratio of staff and campers usually, so there's usually about 10:40:47 16 40 maybe. 10:40:53 17 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 10:40:54 18 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Leithead-Todd, do you 10:40:57 19 have any questions? 10:40:58 20 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No questions. 10:40:59 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Mr. Yamamoto, any followup? 10:41:01 22 MR. YAMAMOTO: One followup question. 10:41:03 23 Q. You indicated there is a high ratio of staff to 10:41:03 24 students? 10:41:08 25 A. (Witness nods head.) At our camp. 10:41:09 34 1 Q. Is there any particular reason for that? 10:41:11 2 A. Because we have -- in our summer camp we have a lot 10:41:14 3 of returning campers and they are called service staff, and so 10:41:16 4 we consider them staff. These can be ages anywhere between 15 10:41:21 5 and 18. And then we have about five adults and then we also 10:41:25 6 have guests, you know, that it would be great if they could 10:41:31 7 spend the night, but sometimes they just come up for the day. 10:41:35 8 Q. And the type of students that are part of your 10:41:37 9 program, are they -- I mean, I guess they've been described 10:41:42 10 somewhat as "at risk". 10:41:46 11 A. No. We have a high and low risk, and that's the 10:41:48 12 beauty of this program is that is it high and low risk. It's 10:41:51 13 not a high risk only program. It's a substance abuse 10:41:55 14 prevention program, but the beauty of it is that we have the 10:41:58 15 low risk kids that can serve as role models for the 10:42:02 16 potentially high risk kids. 10:42:06 17 Q. And when you say "substance abuse prevention," what 10:42:08 18 do you mean by that? 10:42:13 19 A. This, our program, Project Venture, it's a 10:42:14 20 nationally recognized model program that was developed in New 10:42:18 21 Mexico, and it is recognized by SAMCA (phonetic) and CSAP as 10:42:22 22 being a model program for indigenous and native people. We 10:42:27 23 are the only recreation site outside of the continental U.S. 10:42:31 24 and so it's kind of like an outward bound program where we 10:42:38 25 don't talk about substance abuse and, you know, not to do 10:42:41 35 1 things. We give them positive choices and a lot of hiking and 10:42:44 2 outdoor activities that we've been to Ms. Sunderland's. We've 10:42:48 3 been, you know, to the various areas around there. It's 10:42:53 4 getting harder and harder now in Kohala to find places to go 10:42:57 5 just because of the issues with private land owners, and I can 10:43:01 6 see, you know, their concerns. 10:43:04 7 Q. And how does camping, I guess, benefit the students? 10:43:06 8 A. Oh, how does camping -- I don't know if any of you 10:43:12 9 remember camping, but a lot of our kids we know, though they 10:43:18 10 are from Kohala, have really not gone camping out, whether it 10:43:22 11 be in tents or in yurts, or really been away from the TV, the 10:43:26 12 computer, whatever, so it is very integral. We do our best to 10:43:33 13 go camping once a month. 10:43:39 14 Again, it's hard. We don't really want to take the 10:43:41 15 kids places like Mahukona or Hapuna mainly because we try to 10:43:44 16 get them away from the outside world and the influences. And 10:43:49 17 if you go to Spencer Park, I don't know the last time you guys 10:43:53 18 have been there, there is a lot of -- I mean, they allow -- I 10:43:58 19 don't know if they allow drinking. It's just we like to get 10:44:00 20 them away on their own, and it's getting harder to find 10:44:03 21 places. 10:44:07 22 Q. And when the kids are away from the world, what 10:44:07 23 benefits do the kids realize? 10:44:13 24 A. Oh, just reconnecting with nature. We've had kids 10:44:15 25 that have been on Ritalin and medication, and when they've 10:44:21 36 1 come to camp, you know, with their parents' permission, said 10:44:24 2 if they don't need it, is it okay, and we've had two or three 10:44:28 3 kids that haven't taken their medicine at camp. Kids that 10:44:32 4 have been deemed like troublemakers at school kind of getting 10:44:36 5 out into the environment and kind of being in that outdoor 10:44:40 6 classroom where they are maybe not confined. So I may have a 10:44:43 7 lot of documentation, we're not talking big numbers, but we're 10:44:47 8 talking significant numbers in Kohala. 10:44:50 9 And we did a survey in Kohala of people who knew 10:44:54 10 Project Venture and kind of the parents, and we've had a lot 10:44:58 11 of positive feedback. And it's not rocket science. It's just 10:45:02 12 taking them out and providing positive role models and great 10:45:05 13 places to stay. 10:45:10 14 Q. And as a result of their camping experience have the 10:45:15 15 kids changed or benefited? 10:45:18 16 A. Change is -- you know, change is something that you 10:45:20 17 can't measure after one -- although I'll tell you one story. 10:45:23 18 One of the boys who went to camp was deemed as a 10:45:28 19 troublemaker in an 8th grade. He got called into the 10:45:32 20 principal's office -- and the principal did tell me this, so 10:45:37 21 you can ask her -- and about drugs. And he says, "You know, I 10:45:40 22 don't do drugs. I'm in Project Venture." So I don't know if 10:45:44 23 just that feeling good about being in a program. 10:45:49 24 Yeah, I think camp -- I have documentation of the 10:45:52 25 campers, you know, what they've said that camp -- especially a 10:45:55 37 1 rite of passage camp. I had one father saying the daughter 10:46:00 2 came back just a really different person, and a rite of 10:46:03 3 passage is at the end of the year where we do a lot of working 10:46:05 4 with the kids with the Four Shields, the Native American Four 10:46:08 5 Shields, and going into adolescence, which 7th and 8th 10:46:12 6 graders, that's a really important time to work with who they 10:46:16 7 are. So I feel it's very -- it has been life changing, but I 10:46:19 8 can't -- if I had some kids I could have them be here, but 10:46:24 9 (witness nods head.) 10:46:29 10 Q. And you are familiar with the applicant's plan, 10:46:30 11 proposed plan? 10:46:33 12 A. Yes. 10:46:34 13 Q. And how does that help your organization or your 10:46:34 14 particular group? 10:46:40 15 A. It could help by us being able to go there. And I 10:46:42 16 think on a larger venue, I think I just worked with Hualalai 10:46:47 17 Academy and we have a ropes course, and I know that there's 10:46:52 18 one retreat area up above Ka'ahulu (phonetic) and it's pretty 10:46:56 19 small, and I know that maybe more groups from around could 10:47:02 20 benefit from this type of, I think, campground. We only have 10:47:05 21 one area in Kohala, I believe, right now and that's Mahukona, 10:47:10 22 that allows camping, I think. 10:47:16 23 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Well... 10:47:18 24 MR. YAMAMOTO: Nothing further, thank you. 10:47:22 25 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 10:47:22 38 1 Q. Okay. Is your program just for native Hawaiians? 10:47:24 2 A. No, it's not. It's a native -- and we're very 10:47:29 3 inclusive culturally, spiritually. It's a very diverse 10:47:34 4 program. We're not associated with any particular religion, 10:47:40 5 race or creed or color. 10:47:44 6 Q. I thought when you testified earlier you said it was 10:47:46 7 a model program for native and indigenous peoples. 10:47:48 8 A. Yeah, it is. It's one of the few programs that 10:47:51 9 is -- works, and as you know, in Hawai'i we have lots of 10:47:55 10 cultures and so we really do our best to talk about our host 10:48:00 11 culture but also the other cultures. We've got a lot of 10:48:06 12 Japanese, Filipino, Portuguese, all kinds of kids. 10:48:09 13 Q. Okay. And you say in paragraph five that, "If this 10:48:12 14 project is approved our organization will be involved and will 10:48:17 15 support this camping experience," and in what way are you 10:48:21 16 expecting to be involved? 10:48:26 17 A. I would like to see potentially some of our 10:48:28 18 graduates be able to work, maybe eventually there or other 10:48:31 19 places where they provide opportunities for outdoor activities 10:48:36 20 for kids. I would like, you know, to utilize the area for 10:48:42 21 some of our camps for our rite of passage camp. The last 10:48:47 22 couple years we just have had a really hard time finding 10:48:51 23 places. 10:48:55 24 Q. And so it's your understanding with the Sullivans 10:48:55 25 that your group would be able to utilize the area for camping? 10:48:58 39 1 A. Well, I would hope that we would. I mean, that's -- 10:49:02 2 you know, I'm not testifying because, you know, we're going to 10:49:06 3 get a special deal. I just think that that's needed, whether 10:49:09 4 it be our group or any other group. 10:49:12 5 Q. I'm not trying to suggest that you were going to get 10:49:16 6 a special deal. 10:49:18 7 A. Yeah. 10:49:18 8 Q. But I was just trying to find out, if you know, to 10:49:19 9 what extent it would be open to the public, and maybe you 10:49:23 10 can't really answer that question, but I was wondering -- 10:49:26 11 A. Yeah. 10:49:30 12 Q. -- what your understanding on that would be. 10:49:31 13 A. We didn't -- we don't have really an understanding. 10:49:32 14 I think when the time comes, hopefully we can be there and 10:49:35 15 other places. 10:49:40 16 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Does anybody else have 10:49:43 17 any further follow-up? Okay. Thank you very much, Ms. 10:49:46 18 Bowman. 10:49:49 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10:49:49 20 MR. YAMAMOTO: Call James Blake. 10:49:53 21 JAMES BLAKE, 10:50:18 22 Having been first duly sworn, 10:50:18 23 testified upon his oath as follows: 10:50:18 24 BY MR. YAMAMOTO: 10:50:18 25 Q. Mr. Blake, you're the executive director of the 10:50:21 40 1 applicant, Alliance Redwoods Conference Grounds, Inc.? 10:50:25 2 A. Correct. 10:50:29 3 Q. And the group you belong to is a California 10:50:29 4 nonprofit? 10:50:33 5 A. 501(c)(3) corp, correct. 10:50:35 6 Q. Okay. And what is the business of Alliance in 10:50:38 7 California? 10:50:42 8 A. We operate a camp and conference grounds for 10:50:43 9 60 years. We serve various groups, church groups, public 10:50:46 10 schools, environmental education programs, retreats to come 10:50:52 11 out. Our theme is to get away from their surroundings. 10:50:56 12 Q. Now, when you talk about running a camp, what is 10:51:02 13 involved in running a camp? 10:51:05 14 A. Operating facilities, providing a conducive 10:51:09 15 atmosphere that emphasizes creation. It gets away from the 10:51:14 16 normal daily life experience. We operate successfully for all 10:51:20 17 those years facilities that are conducive to the goals of the 10:51:24 18 groups that come here. 10:51:28 19 Q. Okay. Does it also -- is your group also involved 10:51:28 20 in programming for your particular camp? 10:51:31 21 A. Yes. We have approximately 7- to 8,000 public 10:51:34 22 school children that we use curriculum that's approved by the 10:51:38 23 State of California for outdoor science camp, for -- as I 10:51:42 24 speak we have 300 children there right now from public 10:51:45 25 schools. We operate a program with 13 college graduate 10:51:50 41 1 naturalists that teach environmental sciences, and that's a 10:51:54 2 mainstay of what we do, one of the main things we do. 10:51:58 3 Q. And as part of, I guess, operating the camp, is 10:52:02 4 marketing an important component of operating the camp? 10:52:05 5 A. We wouldn't be long for this world without it, 10:52:10 6 that's correct. 10:52:14 7 Q. Okay. And what about planning and development of 10:52:14 8 camps: Has your company or your organization been involved in 10:52:18 9 development? 10:52:24 10 A. Yes, we do. In addition to our acreage there in 10:52:24 11 California, part of our vision, the mission for the 10:52:30 12 organization is to expand our influences, so we currently have 10:52:34 13 two satellite operations operating with a partnership, this 10:52:37 14 being one of them as proposed here in Hawai'i. The other one 10:52:40 15 is South Africa where we take a team to the street kids of 10:52:43 16 Capetown. So we just had a team of 20 that just returned from 10:52:48 17 there just a few weeks ago. So that's part of our -- we look 10:52:51 18 for strategic need where our mission fits that need and then 10:52:54 19 we partner with an organization or individuals to expand that 10:52:59 20 influence to work with youth. 10:53:02 21 Q. And this particular project is a partnership between 10:53:05 22 your group and the Sullivans? 10:53:09 23 A. Correct. We've had a relationship for six or 10:53:11 24 eight years now, can't remember when it exactly started, and 10:53:14 25 their vision and our vision are very compatible. 10:53:17 42 1 Q. Now, your application indicates it's going to have 10:53:19 2 up to 75 campers and have a minimal charge of somewhere 10:53:25 3 between 8- to $18 per night. 10:53:28 4 Is that still correct? 10:53:33 5 A. Correct, um-hum. 10:53:35 6 Q. Okay. And you understand that concerns have been 10:53:36 7 raised about the size of the project and some people have 10:53:39 8 suggested reducing the size of the project? 10:53:44 9 A. Um-hum. 10:53:46 10 Q. Would this project be financially feasible at a 10:53:47 11 smaller size? 10:53:53 12 A. No, it would not. 10:53:54 13 Q. In developing the application and prior to its 10:53:59 14 submittal, did you go over what an ideal camp should look like 10:54:04 15 and what the end -- you know, what did the end result of your 10:54:12 16 analysis come up? 10:54:17 17 A. You mean in relation to size, goals, that sorts of 10:54:19 18 things, size goals? 10:54:21 19 Q. Size. 10:54:22 20 A. Yeah, initially did extensive market research, had 10:54:22 21 over 60 organizations respond to a survey of both on the Big 10:54:26 22 Island as well as other islands, O'ahu and Maui, and had 10:54:29 23 tremendous response, greatest return of any survey I've ever 10:54:34 24 done. There's identified a clear need, and taking the 10:54:38 25 averages of the numbers, it was really initially envisioned we 10:54:42 43 1 needed a facility of 150 to service the demands of the surveys 10:54:49 2 that we did. We reduced that to 75 because that of the -- not 10:54:54 3 wanting to negatively impact the surroundings, the landowners 10:54:58 4 and also being sensitive to environmental concerns, which is 10:55:02 5 obviously with outdoor education we operate that's a high 10:55:05 6 concern; not to negatively impact the property, keep it as 10:55:08 7 natural state as much as possible. So 75 is kind of that if 10:55:12 8 you're going to be able to offer a program that children and 10:55:17 9 families and folks from the islands can afford to come to, 10:55:21 10 that 8- to $18 would be not a feasible number if we reduced 10:55:26 11 the number any further. That was kind of like the, you know, 10:55:31 12 the lowest number you could adequately run a cost-effective 10:55:35 13 program at. 10:55:39 14 Q. And your focus group or the types of people who 10:55:41 15 would be using the facility, what kind of groups were you 10:55:47 16 looking at? 10:55:52 17 A. Our parent organization, Christian & Missionary 10:55:52 18 Alliance organization, has had churches in the islands for 10:55:54 19 over a hundred years. We have -- my jurisdiction includes 10:55:58 20 Hawai'i, oversee a large area, and we identified in that 10:56:01 21 survey was the island churches and the folks from the Big 10:56:05 22 Island in particular, but also with the addition of the ferry 10:56:10 23 to Maui and 'Oahu, one of our -- one of our supporters to one 10:56:13 24 of the chaplains in the Honolulu Police Department, which just 10:56:19 25 called me this morning as a matter of fact, and the need, the 10:56:22 44 1 tremendous need that exists for a facility like this. 10:56:25 2 That's who we intend to serve, not the mainland, but 10:56:28 3 in a sense what we're coming is to give back. A lot of folks 10:56:32 4 who come from the mainland that have taken away, and we're 10:56:36 5 coming to give back, and the prices that we're doing were 10:56:39 6 either very, very unintelligent business people or we have a 10:56:42 7 mission that is greater than money, so that's what this is 10:56:48 8 about. 10:56:50 9 Q. I guess maybe I didn't make my question totally 10:56:50 10 clear, but is one of the focus areas or one of the groups that 10:56:53 11 you are trying to entice low to moderate income groups? 10:56:57 12 A. That is the target group, that's correct. 10:57:01 13 Q. And if your prices were to go higher, what is the 10:57:07 14 concern that you would have? 10:57:11 15 A. It would limit many of the target groups that we 10:57:13 16 want to serve from being able to participate. Clearly that 10:57:17 17 was the feedback that we received, and the research asked the 10:57:21 18 pricing, what's your limitation, number of times per year, 10:57:26 19 makeup of your group economically, and those numbers somewhat 10:57:29 20 were derived from the feedback of those surveys of what's the 10:57:31 21 cost prohibitive factor for them. 10:57:34 22 Q. Now, is the intention or the design of this 10:57:37 23 campground conference center, is it intended to be like a 10:57:43 24 rehab center? 10:57:47 25 A. No, no, it's not. I think it was well described if 10:57:48 45 1 you talk about high risk or low risk. One of the needs we 10:57:51 2 identified was the ice epidemic on the islands here, that 10:57:55 3 there's positive alternatives for youth, Project Venture being 10:57:59 4 an excellent model and very similar for what we envision 10:58:03 5 supporting here. Many of the church organizations that are in 10:58:07 6 the record from the prior public testimony, overwhelming 10:58:09 7 response, even had 14-year olds coming up and giving 10:58:13 8 testimony. We were providing alternatives. That's the group 10:58:16 9 that we're trying to reach, those that are -- that haven't 10:58:20 10 gone into high risk behaviors. We're keeping them out of 10:58:24 11 those high risk behaviors. Also, those that have dabbled in 10:58:27 12 that, you come and you have positive role models. 10:58:31 13 This isn't rocket science. It's building meaningful 10:58:33 14 relations with caring adults in an environment that takes them 10:58:37 15 away from the negative peer pressure and provides them with 10:58:39 16 positive peer pressure; that we've been doing that 10:58:43 17 successfully for decades and want to duplicate that here and 10:58:45 18 use a model very similar to what Project Venture has outlined. 10:58:49 19 Q. Okay. Your organization would run and operate the 10:58:53 20 camp in conjunction with the Sullivans, correct? 10:59:00 21 A. That's correct. 10:59:03 22 Q. And would at risk -- or I guess maybe I'm not 10:59:03 23 defining it correctly, but I mean children who may be on the 10:59:09 24 border, not quite kids who have gone over, as I would call it, 10:59:16 25 to the dark side, but on the borderline, sort of rascal kids 10:59:22 46 1 whose behavior needs some work on, how would the camp, I 10:59:32 2 guess, monitor or control such behavior? 10:59:37 3 A. You provide, as Project Venture does, out -- 10:59:43 4 intensive physical outdoor activity where it mitigates a lot 10:59:47 5 of the negative. Kids do drugs or do a lot of things they are 10:59:51 6 looking for a thrill, they are looking for an excitement, and 10:59:54 7 outdoor adventure provides an alternative in a positive way. 10:59:57 8 It's an outlet for some of that energy and that excitement. 11:00:02 9 That's part of the way you do it; you wear them out before 11:00:05 10 they wear you out. 11:00:07 11 Another way that you do is, depending on the 11:00:08 12 population, how at risk they are, my opinion is that all our 11:00:11 13 youth in the islands, my own family in California, they are 11:00:14 14 all at risk, so you have to provide alternatives. You can't 11:00:18 15 just say "no". You have to provide them and say, "This is an 11:00:21 16 alternative to that." And when they come, depending on what, 11:00:24 17 you know, environments they come out of, you have a higher 11:00:27 18 ratio. We usually say one-to-eight cabin ratio, one 11:00:30 19 counselor, one adult for every eight. If you have a higher, 11:00:34 20 the higher risk potential, you have one to four and so you 11:00:36 21 mitigate any concerns like that, and you have a structured 11:00:39 22 program and you keep them active and focused, and we've 11:00:43 23 successfully done that, have a model that works and just are 11:00:48 24 duplicating that model here. 11:00:52 25 Q. And would it be your -- I guess the people working 11:00:53 47 1 at the camp be the ones responsible for managing or 11:00:59 2 maintaining these campers? 11:01:04 3 A. We provide the activities and the environment, 11:01:05 4 conducive environment, but the groups that we're partnering 11:01:09 5 with, like Project Venture would be a user, and the testimony 11:01:12 6 from the last time of public record there is just letter after 11:01:16 7 letter after letter of groups, the oldest church in Kona on 11:01:19 8 the islands being one of them, bringing their groups with a 11:01:22 9 youth pastor, with caring adults that build relationships, and 11:01:28 10 when they go back to that, they can fall on those experiences. 11:01:31 11 They are providing the cabin counselors. We're not. We're 11:01:35 12 providing guided activities in the outdoor environment to make 11:01:38 13 it a safe and meaningful experience for them so it's guided. 11:01:41 14 So it's a partnership between the group that would come and 11:01:45 15 our staff supplementing providing services. 11:01:48 16 Q. So there would be a lot of supervision ongoing? 11:01:52 17 A. That would be, you know, mandated in the contract 11:01:56 18 process where you have groups come, they are required to have 11:01:59 19 at least one to eight for every male/female and then, again, 11:02:02 20 depending on the situation of where they are bringing those 11:02:07 21 youth from or concerns mandate a higher ratio. 11:02:10 22 Q. So if it's a group that has higher risk kids, a 11:02:14 23 group would be required to bring more adults, supervisors? 11:02:20 24 A. Correct. 11:02:23 25 Q. Would that be a fair statement? 11:02:24 48 1 A. Well, just to give an example, I don't have examples 11:02:25 2 here, but in the United States -- or the mainland, excuse me, 11:02:28 3 this is the United States. We do a program with Angel Tree, 11:02:30 4 which are prisoners' children. And when in that case we have 11:02:35 5 a one-to-four ratio, I've never had a single problem with 11:02:39 6 that. That's a population where they are at risk, but their 11:02:43 7 parents are the ones who are incarcerated, not the kids. They 11:02:48 8 don't even want that stigma. Those -- so that would be 11:02:51 9 defined as higher risk, but I've never had a single incident 11:02:53 10 with a child coming out of that environment because they are 11:02:56 11 so appreciative of the opportunity, has been my experience. 11:02:59 12 MR. YAMAMOTO: I have nothing further. 11:03:08 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Ms. Leithead-Todd, do 11:03:11 14 you have any questions? 11:03:13 15 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Yes. 11:03:15 16 Q. In your statement you say that you're affiliated 11:03:18 17 with eight church groups? 11:03:21 18 A. (Witness nods head.) 11:03:24 19 Q. Could you from your memory identify those church 11:03:25 20 groups? 11:03:30 21 A. Well, the church groups, they are actually the 11:03:30 22 denomination I'm a member of, has eight churches, mostly in 11:03:33 23 O'ahu. 11:03:40 24 Q. Um-hum, and what denomination is that? 11:03:40 25 A. The Christian & Missionary Alliance, C&MA. There 11:03:42 49 1 was a C&MA church here in Hilo actually that unfortunately 11:03:47 2 closed, and there is a church being planned for this area. 11:03:51 3 Q. Okay. And your statement also talks about Christian 11:03:55 4 hospitality and fellowship. 11:04:00 5 So the programs that you provide are based mainly 11:04:02 6 for church groups? 11:04:07 7 A. No. Yes, that's a lot of what we do. When it's 11:04:09 8 here, it's the response that you see in the testimony there is 11:04:16 9 approximately 40 churches expressed interest as well as 11:04:19 10 schools, and that's the target group that would be coming 11:04:23 11 during mostly weekends, anticipating families that come out of 11:04:26 12 those church congregations in the areas. 11:04:31 13 Q. Okay. If this is geared mostly for weekends, what 11:04:33 14 occurs during the week? 11:04:36 15 A. Well, the camps, Project Venture and so forth, and 11:04:37 16 youth groups would be the primary users during the weekday. 11:04:42 17 It's often families and sometimes youth on weekends. Depends 11:04:45 18 on the time of year and so forth. 11:04:49 19 Q. Okay. And how do you decide who comes? Is there -- 11:04:52 20 you do advertising? Is there a booking arrangement? Is there 11:04:58 21 a preference for church groups affiliated with you? 11:05:02 22 A. How do we go about doing that? 11:05:05 23 Q. Um-hum. 11:05:07 24 A. Well, there is a contract process and they -- the 11:05:08 25 market research indicates, like in the testimony, they are -- 11:05:13 50 1 most of the groups you have listed there have already asked, 11:05:16 2 "Once this place has begun, we'd like to book two or three 11:05:19 3 times a year." 11:05:22 4 Q. Okay. 11:05:23 5 A. So the research it's almost essentially word of 11:05:23 6 mouth right now. We make it available to the island 11:05:26 7 congregations. 11:05:30 8 Q. Okay. And why are you interested in this particular 11:05:31 9 site for establishment of your camp? 11:05:39 10 A. You mean in North Kohala? 11:05:42 11 Q. Yes, on this particular property. 11:05:44 12 A. It's conducive to the exact environment necessary to 11:05:45 13 accomplish a lot of the goals. When you go to -- I think it 11:05:50 14 was mentioned, like Spencer Beach. I've camped there, and 11:05:54 15 there was, you know, a party next door. I was with my 11:05:57 16 daughters and camping, and there was a party next door, guys 11:06:01 17 trying to pick up my daughters, with alcohol. Youth that I've 11:06:05 18 spoken to in the islands are from the youth pastors on the 11:06:08 19 island here, there isn't a place that's separated for that 11:06:12 20 use, and the reason you need to come away in a place that's 11:06:15 21 adequate isolation from that negative peer pressure, and 11:06:18 22 that's why this is ideally suited for that, from my 11:06:26 23 perspective being camping for 30 years. 11:06:29 24 Q. In your experience in running the camps in 11:06:34 25 California, how close is the camp that you run in California 11:06:37 51 1 to any neighboring properties? 11:06:42 2 A. Oh, I have a neighbor, two neighbors that are less 11:06:45 3 than a hundred feet from the border of our property where we 11:06:52 4 operate our programs. 11:06:56 5 Q. Do you have any idea how close the residences on 11:06:58 6 those properties are to your camp? 11:07:01 7 A. That's less than a hundred feet. 11:07:03 8 Q. Okay. 11:07:05 9 A. Very close by. 11:07:06 10 Q. Based on your experience, has there been a negative 11:07:07 11 impact on the neighboring properties? Have there been 11:07:11 12 complaints? 11:07:14 13 A. No. We've had a strong relationship with those 11:07:15 14 neighbors. We're in an area that's normally larger 11:07:19 15 properties. There's not a lot of heavy development. These 11:07:24 16 are the only two that have residences that are right in our 11:07:26 17 backyard. We keep an open communication and I don't -- 11:07:29 18 biggest problem we've had is their dog getting loose and 11:07:34 19 running across our property. I think that's about the biggest 11:07:38 20 problem we've had. 11:07:40 21 Q. And how large is your property up in California? 11:07:41 22 A. That's approximately 150 acres. 11:07:43 23 Q. And that was you said you had one group for 300 up 11:07:45 24 there, so it's a much larger operation? 11:07:51 25 A. Our use permit allows 350 users a night. 11:07:53 52 1 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No further questions. 11:07:59 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland, do you have 11:08:01 3 any questions? 11:08:02 4 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. Yes, I did. 11:08:03 5 Q. Mr. Blake, you mentioned that you have rules and 11:08:04 6 regulations. 11:08:07 7 A. Um-hum. 11:08:08 8 Q. Would you have any adverse reaction to that being 11:08:08 9 part of the requirement that you have a written safeguards 11:08:16 10 established prior to certificate of occupancy to mitigate any 11:08:22 11 adverse at-risk situations? 11:08:26 12 A. Well, I'm not sure I'm fully -- that's a pretty 11:08:31 13 broad question. I'd have to have a little bit more detail. I 11:08:36 14 wouldn't want the restrictions that I think you're 11:08:40 15 recommending at this point, no. 11:08:42 16 Q. I'm not restricting. 11:08:44 17 What I'm asking is would you be willing to establish 11:08:45 18 a written safeguards? 11:08:50 19 A. Provide documentation of the safeguards that we put 11:08:51 20 in place conditionally, yes. 11:08:54 21 Q. Absolutely, yes. Okay. 11:08:55 22 My second question is I think that we all know is 11:09:00 23 children at risk are children without inner discipline, yes? 11:09:03 24 That's a common thing. 11:09:07 25 How will you -- I mean when you say that all of 11:09:11 53 1 these kids are at risk, in a very big way all of these kids 11:09:14 2 are at risk because they are walking distance to cliffs that 11:09:20 3 are very dangerous. How will you make sure that that does 11:09:23 4 not -- that these young people would not go out in the middle 11:09:29 5 of the night and walk down to the cliffs and fall off the 11:09:32 6 cliffs? 11:09:35 7 A. Well, I'm not sure I can give you those guarantees. 11:09:38 8 I can just give you Alliance Redwoods with 25,000 participants 11:09:41 9 a year for 60 years hasn't had that experience, and we are in 11:09:45 10 a very hazardous area with steep inclines and large trees and 11:09:49 11 ropes courses and three rows. Adequately staffing and 11:09:54 12 supervision has prevented any accidents for our 60-year 11:10:00 13 history, so that would be the same -- I would have the same 11:10:04 14 expectation here. 11:10:07 15 Q. In your statement you say -- there is a couple 11:10:12 16 statements you make. One is -- and I'm reading from this, 11:10:16 17 from your special permit application, yes? 11:10:19 18 A. Yes. 11:10:20 19 Q. You say prices will vary depending on the use of 11:10:21 20 cabins or just campsites from $8 per person per night for 11:10:25 21 camping guests to 18- to $50 per person per night. 11:10:30 22 A. Correct. 11:10:36 23 Q. Correct. Okay. Because earlier you said 8 to 18. 11:10:36 24 That's incorrect, that's -- 11:10:40 25 A. Well, no, that's not incorrect. 11:10:42 54 1 Q. It's 8 to 50? 11:10:45 2 A. It depends on the number. What $18 represents is a 11:10:45 3 cabin with eight people. If you had a cabin with two people, 11:10:49 4 because a couple on weekend, let's say you had a couples 11:10:52 5 retreat using the facility, your pricing, if you want to put a 11:10:55 6 couple in a cabin that's sleeps eight, the price would be 50 11:10:59 7 per person. So that's just a clarification what's meant 11:11:02 8 there. 11:11:05 9 Q. Okay, good. Also in your application you say the 11:11:05 10 average group size is anticipated to be 30 to 40 guests, and 11:11:08 11 you're asking for 75. 11:11:13 12 Um. . . 11:11:17 13 A. We don't have more 50 if there's more than one group 11:11:20 14 at a time, and many of the groups, we have groups in our 11:11:22 15 survey that were well over a hundred to 150, some at 200. 11:11:24 16 We're not trying to accomplish that, but 75 is kind of that 11:11:29 17 number, you'd have two groups of 30, you could have two, three 11:11:34 18 groups of 20, you'd have multiple groups using the facility at 11:11:39 19 the same time at a given time. 11:11:42 20 Q. So you would have multiple groups using the facility 11:11:43 21 at once? 11:11:46 22 A. Potentially, keeping that 75 capacity, that would be 11:11:46 23 correct. 11:11:52 24 Q. So then you have groups sort of interfering with 11:11:52 25 each other. 11:11:57 55 1 What about individuals, people coming that aren't 11:11:57 2 part of a group, would that be allowed? 11:12:00 3 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland, you will have 11:12:02 4 the opportunity to testify, yourself, if you want to, but at 11:12:04 5 that point in time people will have the opportunity to 11:12:08 6 cross-examine, so I would ask that you ask questions of the 11:12:11 7 witness now and save your testimony for later. 11:12:14 8 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Yes, that's what I'm asking. 11:12:16 9 Q. Would you have individuals coming as well as groups? 11:12:18 10 A. Certainly. 11:12:20 11 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Okay. That's the end of my 11:12:34 12 questions. Thank you. 11:12:36 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11:12:36 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Mr. Withington, do you have 11:12:38 15 any questions? 11:12:40 16 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I do. 11:12:41 17 Q. First I'll follow up on a couple of previous 11:12:41 18 questions. 11:12:44 19 So then I'm trying to understand, then, the cost of 11:12:45 20 the cabins is actually a hundred dollars per night? 11:12:50 21 A. No. 11:12:52 22 Q. Then -- 11:12:54 23 A. That's in per person. 11:12:54 24 Q. $50 per person per night for double occupancy? 11:12:55 25 A. Oh, I'm sorry, yes, you are correct. Yes, if 11:12:59 56 1 there's only two people camping, that would be correct. 11:13:01 2 Q. But the cabins say it was single occupancy, or is 11:13:04 3 that even an option under your kind of plan? 11:13:08 4 A. I guess it could be. 11:13:10 5 Q. Okay. I just wanted to clarify that. 11:13:12 6 I also wanted to clarify the question about the 11:13:14 7 eight church groups you're affiliated with. 11:13:18 8 Are any of them actually located in North Kohala? 11:13:21 9 A. No, not currently. 11:13:24 10 Q. Okay. I went to your website and it's an impressive 11:13:25 11 operation. 11:13:31 12 I was curios: What is Alliance, speaking for 11:13:32 13 Alliance Redwoods and your parent organization, if possible? 11:13:37 14 A. Yes, um-hum. 11:13:41 15 Q. What is your primary mission in establishing this 11:13:41 16 camp? What is it you want to accomplish? 11:13:44 17 A. Our primary mission is establishing that camp to 11:13:46 18 serve the island churches. It would be an extension. What we 11:13:50 19 see ourselves serving, the objectives and the goals, we define 11:13:54 20 our goals and success by the groups coming that are achieving 11:13:57 21 their goals, and because there is an aspect of providing 11:14:01 22 positive alternatives to youth through the church 11:14:05 23 congregations working with a lot of population, we assume that 11:14:09 24 is going to be a big focus of these churches that would want 11:14:11 25 to use this. 11:14:15 57 1 Q. But is there a religious component to it? 11:14:17 2 A. We're a Christian organization, that's correct. 11:14:20 3 Q. Okay. Did -- the camp you have in California, which 11:14:23 4 is quite a large camp, do you do any sort of agricultural 11:14:27 5 programs? I know you say it's a wilderness retreat on your 11:14:32 6 website, but is there an agricultural component to that camp? 11:14:34 7 A. Most of our property's in a coastal redwood forest 11:14:38 8 and, so there's not really aspects of their agricultural in 11:14:42 9 nature. It's outdoor education, environmental sciences that 11:14:47 10 are taught on the property because it's in a natural setting. 11:14:50 11 There's no agricultural use there. 11:14:53 12 Q. Okay. Again, another thing I was curious about is 11:14:56 13 in your application you're planning to develop six acres of 11:15:08 14 land; is that correct? 11:15:12 15 A. Well, yeah. The outlying area there, there's 11:15:14 16 six acres. 11:15:17 17 Q. And the rental agreement that you have with the 11:15:18 18 Sullivans is for 15 acres; is that correct? 11:15:20 19 A. The maximum is 15 -- 11:15:22 20 Q. Maximum. 11:15:25 21 A. -- can be actually developed. Of the 36, I think 11:15:25 22 the six acres is what's proposed right now. 11:15:28 23 Q. So what can you explain to us the circumstances 11:15:31 24 around why you made a rental agreement for more land than you 11:15:36 25 agree to developing with this permit -- would be developing? 11:15:40 58 1 A. That's a good question. I'm trying to remember back 11:15:47 2 to the stipulations around the permitting process, and 11:15:50 3 counsel -- that's probably a better question for our 11:15:54 4 consultant based on land use. There were reasons for that. 11:15:57 5 If you go over 15 acres it creates other levels of concern, so 11:16:01 6 I think that's what that is. 11:16:07 7 MR. YAMAMOTO: If I can interject, I think that 11:16:08 8 question probably would be better -- 11:16:09 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's what I was saying. 11:16:11 10 MR. YAMAMOTO: -- better directed to Mr. Nishimura. 11:16:13 11 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Thank you. I will wait to 11:16:16 12 ask that question, then. 11:16:17 13 Q. Then you -- I also noticed in your application that 11:16:19 14 you mention that due to high cost of housing, you're 11:16:22 15 wanting -- you also want to build residences for the people 11:16:26 16 who work there. 11:16:31 17 A. Um-hum. 11:16:31 18 Q. And I was curious if that meant that you were also 11:16:32 19 expecting to bring in staff from outside of North Kohala. 11:16:34 20 A. Based on the qualified applicants, maybe within, 11:16:40 21 maybe without. 11:16:44 22 Q. Okay. Then I was also curious of what you see given 11:16:44 23 your mission is and what you hope to accomplish, the 11:16:52 24 difference between what you propose and your dialogue and all 11:16:55 25 that, the Christian retreat center, which has a capacity for 11:17:00 59 1 over a hundred visitors per night and is also a Christian 11:17:04 2 themed center, without a swimming pool. 11:17:08 3 A. So the question is? 11:17:11 4 Q. What's the difference? What would you be providing 11:17:11 5 to the community that isn't provided by Makahala? 11:17:14 6 A. That's really a question for them, but for us that's 11:17:18 7 based on our own market research that the demand was really 11:17:21 8 much greater than the supply. 11:17:24 9 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: All right. I have no 11:17:26 10 further questions. 11:17:27 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Do you have any recross? 11:17:31 12 MR. YAMAMOTO: No redirect. 11:17:33 13 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 11:17:33 14 Q. I just have a couple of questions. 11:17:35 15 A. Sure. 11:17:36 16 Q. You said that the camp will be available to serve 11:17:38 17 the community, not just people in your Christian group. And 11:17:46 18 so how does -- how will that work? In other words, if public 11:17:52 19 schools want to come -- or I see you have a letter from the 11:18:04 20 Hawai'i Preparatory Academy. 11:18:04 21 If they wanted to use your facility or if Project 11:18:04 22 Venture wanted to use your facility, how do you decide who 11:18:05 23 gets to use the facility? 11:18:09 24 A. It's based on the demand and a need and comparing at 11:18:13 25 the time I don't -- there is a -- we're a faith based 11:18:17 60 1 organization that serves the needs of the community but also 11:18:21 2 the faith community. Because we're a faith based 11:18:25 3 organization, we don't receive any public funding, we do have 11:18:30 4 options to discriminate. That doesn't mean that we 11:18:37 5 necessarily receive all faiths. If they teach something 11:18:38 6 that's in conflict with the statement of faith that we have 11:18:39 7 which is on our website as well, there can be discrimination 11:18:41 8 about groups coming. It's not just open to any and everyone 11:18:43 9 that comes. We do withhold that. 11:18:47 10 Now, when groups such as public schools and youth 11:18:49 11 organizations that don't have a spiritual component teaching 11:18:53 12 as specific faith, they are more -- that's what we serve. We 11:18:57 13 serve 7,000 public school children a year at our facility 11:19:00 14 there. They are not teaching a spiritual component that's not 11:19:05 15 contrary to ours. So if that answers your question, that's 11:19:08 16 where the determining factors, how we would determine usage. 11:19:11 17 Q. Well, would you give a preference to your eight 11:19:15 18 groups? You said there are eight churches here in the 11:19:19 19 islands. 11:19:22 20 A. Yeah. The Christian & Missionary Alliance 11:19:22 21 denomination is the parent organization that are based in 11:19:25 22 California has preferential date pick and that sort of thing, 11:19:28 23 some things, because they are the parent organization, they 11:19:32 24 represent 15 of all the churches that -- in the denomination. 11:19:35 25 Our total usages is different figures. Fifteen percent of our 11:19:40 61 1 total usage involves our denomination. The other majority, 11:19:43 2 vast majority come from all other groups, and so that here, 11:19:47 3 being that eight churches are on O'ahu, I'm anticipating that 11:19:52 4 we'll probably even be less than our parent organization use. 11:19:56 5 We're here actually to serve. That's part of the 11:19:58 6 name of the denomination, the Alliance. That means embracing 11:20:01 7 rather than exclusive, and we're trying to serve all the 11:20:04 8 island churches and youth organizations. 11:20:07 9 That's -- does that answer your question? 11:20:11 10 Q. Yes. Now, if it were a public school that were to 11:20:15 11 come and use your facilities, do they bring their own teachers 11:20:20 12 with them? In other words, is the staff that you will be 11:20:24 13 housing, are they religious teachers, or how does that work? 11:20:31 14 A. Depends on the program. If it's a retreat 11:20:37 15 experience, if they are coming for a guided activity thing or 11:20:39 16 outdoor education experience, I can give you an analogy what 11:20:43 17 we do there. 11:20:46 18 We have the 13 naturalists that teach at our base 11:20:47 19 there for 300 kids, but we have parents that it would be -- or 11:20:51 20 their sponsors they bring from the schools to be the cabin 11:20:54 21 counselors. So I would assume similar here. We wouldn't be 11:20:57 22 providing the cabin counselors, but if we're running guided 11:21:01 23 activities and the hosts on the facility, we're -- the 11:21:04 24 majority of the staffing is coming from those churches. 11:21:08 25 Q. So if it were a public school -- 11:21:11 62 1 A. Or public school user, sorry. 11:21:14 2 Q. -- coming to use your facility, you would be 11:21:16 3 providing -- your model in California -- 11:21:18 4 A. Um-hum. 11:21:21 5 Q. -- is that you provide environmental sciences 11:21:21 6 education? 11:21:24 7 A. Um-hum. 11:21:25 8 Q. But you're not providing religious training when the 11:21:25 9 public schools come? 11:21:29 10 A. No, we're not. Yeah, we respect those guidelines, 11:21:31 11 yeah. 11:21:34 12 Q. Okay. And then in the director's -- the 11:21:34 13 recommendation, he lists a number of criteria. 11:21:38 14 A. Um-hum. 11:21:43 15 Q. And one of them relates -- No. 8 relates to the 11:21:44 16 access easement that you share with the Hawai'i Permaculture 11:21:48 17 and Wellness Retreat, and I see in the other materials that 11:21:56 18 were submitted the neighbors are very concerned about the 11:21:58 19 increased usage of the road. 11:22:00 20 A. Um-hum. 11:22:02 21 Q. Have you had discussions with the Hawaiian 11:22:03 22 Permaculture and Wellness Retreat on this No. 8 with the 11:22:07 23 director? "The applicant shall participate in the cost on 11:22:12 24 improving the access roads with the applicants of the approved 11:22:15 25 16-room Hawaiian Permaculture and Wellness Retreat." How do 11:22:20 63 1 you envision -- should the permit be granted, how do you 11:22:25 2 envision meeting the requirements of paragraph No. 8? 11:22:29 3 A. From my perspective I see that that's a legitimate 11:22:33 4 cost share that we have not had conversations, Jean and I, 11:22:39 5 about that thus far. If I remember correctly that the public 11:22:43 6 hearing before Chris Ewing was going to mediate that 11:22:47 7 discussion to make sure of that equitability, and we want it 11:22:51 8 to be fair and equitable. We want appropriate cost share 11:22:54 9 based on volume of use. 11:22:58 10 Q. Okay. So you don't have any problems, though, with 11:22:59 11 making that -- whatever expenditures -- 11:23:01 12 A. No. 11:23:03 13 Q. -- Mr. Ewing decides is appropriate for application? 11:23:03 14 A. I would accept his direction on that. 11:23:08 15 Q. Do you envision that the other neighbors in the 11:23:11 16 community would have an opportunity to comment on the access 11:23:15 17 that is planned and how the improvements will be made? 11:23:21 18 A. Well, I guess there is an association which monitors 11:23:25 19 that and makes those decisions and I respect that 11:23:30 20 association's recommendations as well so if we have any 11:23:34 21 affected land owners an opportunity to participate that way. 11:23:37 22 Q. Okay. And do you -- is your plan that the primary 11:23:41 23 users of your camp will be people from Hawai'i, students from 11:23:47 24 Hawai'i? 11:23:53 25 A. Absolutely, the vast majority, correct. Teams that 11:23:53 64 1 we've had come over from the United States like we just sent 11:23:56 2 to South Africa come to give back, not to take, and so this is 11:24:00 3 not a resort or they are coming over to a vacation experience. 11:24:04 4 Similar to a team from one of the colleges in the association, 11:24:08 5 Simpson University in Redding, California, came, they led 11:24:10 6 the -- helped run the Kamehameha Day Parade. They served 11:24:13 7 painting homes, cleaning yards, giving back to the people in 11:24:18 8 the community, and that would be the focus of groups coming 11:24:22 9 over to serve and to participate in operating the camp, not to 11:24:25 10 be an experience for themselves. 11:24:31 11 Q. And the director's recommendation, paragraph No. 9 11:24:34 12 he says, "The applicant shall keep the access easement that 11:24:38 13 runs through the property open and ungated to allow public 11:24:42 14 access to the shoreline." 11:24:45 15 A. (Witness nods head.) 11:24:47 16 Q. Are you going to be able to do that, and will that 11:24:49 17 in any way interfere with the camping program and the safety 11:24:52 18 of the students who are -- who are at the camp? Because if 11:24:56 19 it's open to the public, obviously you won't know who is 11:25:02 20 coming and going on that access. 11:25:07 21 A. Well, you know, if you look at the access road 11:25:10 22 that's coming down, it's outside the border of the developed 11:25:12 23 property, and that's part of why there is an envisioned 11:25:17 24 vegetation, a wall of vegetation across there, to create a 11:25:22 25 barrier between the road and where the campers operate. And 11:25:26 65 1 once they park on the side of the road, the access into the 11:25:30 2 area -- this is conceptual right now -- is walking trails and 11:25:33 3 paths. So you're separating traffic from, you know, where the 11:25:38 4 campers would be, for safety. 11:25:41 5 Q. Okay. But you're not envisioning putting up a 11:25:46 6 fence; you're envisioning a vegetation barrier? 11:25:49 7 A. Yeah. I think the barrier is just meant to be a 11:25:52 8 separation. 11:25:55 9 Q. Okay. And No. 4 of the planning director's 11:26:00 10 recommendations and conditions he says that the maximum amount 11:26:07 11 of overnight guests will be 75. 11:26:11 12 A. Um-hum. 11:26:14 13 Q. And you have previously testified that that comports 11:26:14 14 with the plans that you have at the present time. 11:26:20 15 How many other people will be on the premises to 11:26:22 16 do -- to stay overnight when you have a full capacity of 75? 11:26:29 17 A. Well, assuming you have -- if you're talking about 11:26:35 18 the six acres now, not speaking necessarily the full 11:26:37 19 Sullivan's property -- 11:26:41 20 Q. No, I'm just talking about your property. 11:26:41 21 A. -- in the 75? 11:26:43 22 That's the four staff homes. If you envision the 11:26:45 23 staff, you know, you have staff that serve and operate, 11:26:49 24 whether it's housekeeping, programming and so forth. What we 11:26:52 25 envision is four with two bedrooms in each, so eight would be 11:26:55 66 1 a reasonable number to anticipate. I don't have a set number 11:27:00 2 because it's dependent on the program development what 11:27:02 3 requirements that -- for staff necessary. 11:27:06 4 Q. I see. So what you're saying is and then in 11:27:08 5 addition to that, there will be the Sullivans? 11:27:10 6 A. Correct, but you're not on that six acres. 11:27:12 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. I understand. Okay. 11:27:17 8 I don't have any other questions. 11:27:20 9 Are there any further follow-up after my 11:27:22 10 questioning? 11:27:24 11 MR. YAMAMOTO: I have no. 11:27:24 12 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: I just have one. 11:27:26 13 Q. I want a clarification. 11:27:29 14 Did you say of the four staff cabins do you 11:27:32 15 anticipate eight per cabin or eight in total? 11:27:35 16 A. No. It's staff that is living there for any period 11:27:38 17 of time, it's like eight bedrooms between those four units is 11:27:43 18 what is -- again, that's conceptual. We don't have -- I don't 11:27:46 19 have that defined to a science yet. That's what we envision 11:27:48 20 at that point is necessary to service that number. 11:27:52 21 Maybe you'll need, you know, two per room during 11:27:57 22 certain times of the year and one per room during another. 11:28:02 23 Q. So eight to 16? 11:28:04 24 A. Could be, yeah, I really don't have an exact -- 11:28:06 25 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Is that consistent with the 11:28:08 67 1 ratio of counselors to -- 11:28:09 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Excuse me, let's let Ms. 11:28:11 3 Sunderland finish her questions. 11:28:13 4 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Sorry. 11:28:14 5 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: And then you can follow up. 11:28:15 6 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: That's fine. 11:28:17 7 Eight to 16 in the staff cabins, okay. 11:28:17 8 Go ahead. 11:28:20 9 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I was just curious if that's 11:28:21 10 similar to the ratio you have at your -- 11:28:23 11 THE WITNESS: No. This is different because this is 11:28:25 12 the staff that services the facilities and grounds and 11:28:27 13 housekeeping and programming. If you're running ropes courses 11:28:30 14 when groups come and stay in the cabin, you have an adult 11:28:34 15 staying with a group of eight. That's in a separate -- so 11:28:37 16 this is the service staff necessary to serve that group. I 11:28:40 17 meant I anticipate 16 is the very high end. I don't know what 11:28:49 18 it is at this point. 11:28:52 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Yes, Ms. Leithead-Todd. 11:28:54 20 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Are you finished? 11:28:58 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Are you done? 11:28:59 22 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Yes. 11:28:59 23 BY MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: 11:28:59 24 Q. You stated that because you're a private group that 11:29:00 25 you do discriminate on people who apply to come and stay at 11:29:02 68 1 the camp if they conflict with your mission or your teachings. 11:29:09 2 A. (Witness nods head.) 11:29:09 3 Q. So I just want to be clear on this. 11:29:16 4 So if a Buddhist church or a Muslim church group 11:29:17 5 wanted to come use your facilities, then that might conflict 11:29:23 6 with your teachings and they might not be able to avail 11:29:26 7 themselves because they are not a Christian organization? 11:29:30 8 A. We would respectfully not service those groups, 11:29:33 9 that's correct. 11:29:36 10 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Okay. I just wanted to be 11:29:36 11 clear. 11:29:38 12 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 11:29:38 13 Q. So I want to be clear on that, too. 11:29:48 14 A. Sure. 11:29:51 15 Q. So in other words, it has to be a Christian group or 11:29:51 16 a non-religious group? 11:29:54 17 A. For a good example is Project Venture would not be 11:29:57 18 in any way in conflict with our statement of faith. It's 11:30:01 19 available on the website. Where a group would be teaching a 11:30:05 20 belief system that's in direct opposition to that, that would 11:30:12 21 not be a group we would contract with. That's consistent with 11:30:17 22 our 60-year history in our facility there as well. So that is 11:30:21 23 correct, yeah. That's why we don't receive any public 11:30:27 24 funding. 11:30:33 25 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Are there any other 11:30:56 69 1 questions? 11:30:57 2 Okay. Thank you very much. 11:31:00 3 THE WITNESS: Sure. 11:31:02 4 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Do you want to call your next 11:31:04 5 witness? 11:31:06 6 MR. YAMAMOTO: Yes, call. 11:31:06 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: We'll go another half an hour 11:31:07 8 until noon. 11:31:09 9 Is that okay with you, madame court reporter? 11:31:10 10 THE REPORTER: Yes. Thank you. 11:31:14 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Thank you. 11:31:16 12 MR. YAMAMOTO: Call Bernard Sullivan. 11:31:17 13 BERNARD SULLIVAN, 11:31:26 14 Having been first duly sworn, 11:31:26 15 testified upon his oath as follows: 11:31:31 16 BY MR. YAMAMOTO: 11:31:31 17 Q. Mr. Sullivan, your property is where this proposed 11:31:32 18 campsite is going to be, correct? 11:31:38 19 A. That is correct. 11:31:40 20 Q. Now, one of the -- you indicate your property is 11:31:40 21 supposed to be roughly 36 acres, give or take? 11:31:47 22 A. That's correct. 11:31:49 23 Q. Okay. And where -- about how much of it is really, 11:31:50 24 so to speak, usable? 11:31:59 25 A. About 12 to 13 acres, around there. 11:32:00 70 1 Q. And why is it only 12 to 13 acres? 11:32:05 2 A. The rest is in steep gulch and with limited access 11:32:10 3 to it. 11:32:15 4 Q. Okay. Now, up on the board is Planning Department 11:32:16 5 Exhibit D, I believe? 11:32:24 6 A. Yes. 11:32:26 7 Q. Which is a site plan? 11:32:26 8 A. That's correct. 11:32:28 9 Q. Now, in terms of the vision or plan for the 11:32:29 10 campground conference center -- 11:32:38 11 A. Um-hum. 11:32:40 12 Q. -- is it the plan to put about, what, three acres 11:32:40 13 for fruit orchards? 11:32:44 14 A. Conceptually, yeah. It's I think, yeah, somewhere 11:32:49 15 in there, three to four, yeah. 11:32:57 16 Q. And what types of trees are contemplated to be 11:32:58 17 planted on the property? 11:33:03 18 A. That are already planted or in? 11:33:04 19 Q. Why don't we take what's already there. 11:33:06 20 A. Okay. I have mango, lychee, star fruit, sour sop, 11:33:09 21 avocado. Actually all the citruses, lime, lemon, several 11:33:16 22 different oranges, grapefruit, pineapple, papaya, coconut. 11:33:25 23 That's all I can think of right now. 11:33:34 24 Q. Okay. And what other? 11:33:37 25 A. Oh, and bananas. 11:33:39 71 1 Q. Okay. And what other types of fruit trees do you 11:33:40 2 envision, I guess, planting as part of this -- the activities 11:33:45 3 of this camp? 11:33:53 4 A. Activities of the camp, probably more of the same, 11:33:55 5 just adding different varieties and expanding. 11:33:58 6 Q. How about like tangerine trees? 11:34:03 7 A. I have, yeah, and we plan more. 11:34:06 8 Q. Okay. Do you have guava trees or waiwi? 11:34:08 9 A. Waiwi, yeah, we have both. We have the common and 11:34:17 10 the waiwi. 11:34:20 11 Q. About how much do you currently have planted? 11:34:22 12 A. Probably a little over an acre. I would say an acre 11:34:25 13 and a half, maybe, in orchard. 11:34:31 14 Q. So the plan would be -- 11:34:32 15 A. Not counting the coconuts. I have like 60 coconut 11:34:34 16 trees. 11:34:38 17 Q. So the plan is for the people who attend the camp to 11:34:39 18 further grow or plant and maintain these additional trees? 11:34:45 19 A. Yeah. Part of our education would be teaching 11:34:50 20 propagation, and I'd like to even teach grafting and organic 11:34:54 21 gardening, and that -- you know, that is why I have to develop 11:35:02 22 everything yet. I don't have the resources to do that, and 11:35:07 23 the manpower to farm organically is extensive, but it is an 11:35:11 24 opportunity to teach the local kids how to grow their own 11:35:17 25 fruit. 11:35:20 72 1 Q. Okay. Now, part of the plan is also to develop an 11:35:20 2 organic vegetable garden? 11:35:27 3 A. That is correct. 11:35:29 4 Q. And what currently how big is -- is there a 11:35:29 5 vegetable garden on the property? 11:35:33 6 A. Yes, just our -- 11:35:35 7 Q. How big is it? 11:35:37 8 A. My wife and my personal garden plot. It's about, I 11:35:38 9 don't know, 35 by 35, something like that, yeah. 11:35:42 10 Q. And what do you currently have there? 11:35:44 11 A. We have kale, chard, lettuce, I have peppers. Beans 11:35:47 12 are gone. 11:35:59 13 MRS. SULLIVAN: It's in process. 11:36:01 14 THE WITNESS: What? 11:36:03 15 MRS. SULLIVAN: Well, it's a work in process. 11:36:04 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Basil. The papayas are 11:36:07 17 surrounding it. That's basically what we have in there at 11:36:10 18 this point. 11:36:15 19 BY MR. YAMAMOTO: 11:36:18 20 Q. And how big a garden are you looking -- I mean, a 11:36:18 21 vegetable garden are you looking at if the camp is approved 11:36:21 22 and operating? 11:36:23 23 A. For my personal garden? 11:36:26 24 Q. No. 11:36:27 25 A. For that -- yeah, I'm envisioning, you know, 11:36:28 73 1 starting out with a couple acres and just going from there as 11:36:32 2 time progresses and seeing, you know, what the need of the 11:36:37 3 community is and what the need for, you know, teaching as 11:36:41 4 well. 11:36:47 5 Q. And what kind of vegetables would be grown on this 11:36:47 6 larger garden? 11:36:53 7 A. I'd like to teach them dry land taro farming, and as 11:36:54 8 one thing, I'd like to get a good size pineapple patch going 11:36:59 9 and, again, with all the lettuces, tomato, yams, potatoes, 11:37:05 10 carrots, just a whole variety of, you know, what we can grow 11:37:09 11 there. 11:37:15 12 Q. And would these vegetables be used as part of the 11:37:15 13 food supply for the camp? 11:37:21 14 A. Sure. 11:37:23 15 Q. Or do you envision something else for these 11:37:24 16 vegetables? 11:37:27 17 A. I envision just using, giving it away and, you know, 11:37:28 18 maybe, you know, selling some at the local farmers market on 11:37:32 19 Saturday, mostly just giving it to the people who come and 11:37:36 20 work in the garden and share it in the camp. If there's any 11:37:39 21 left over, I have lots of neighbors that we, you know, share 11:37:42 22 things back and forth. Kathy and Carl Pomeroy, we share herbs 11:37:46 23 and lettuces right now, and it's just nice to be able to give. 11:37:50 24 I don't foresee it as an economic adventure for profit. 11:37:54 25 Q. Are you envisioning a portion of the land to be used 11:38:05 74 1 for grazing? 11:38:08 2 A. Yes. 11:38:09 3 Q. About how much? 11:38:11 4 A. About four acres. 11:38:12 5 Q. Okay. And what kind of animals do you envision 11:38:13 6 having in this pasture area? 11:38:17 7 A. Just cows and maybe a horse or two, something like 11:38:19 8 that, some beef cows. 11:38:25 9 Q. Now, what kinds of activities do you envision 11:38:30 10 resulting, would result from the fruit orchards, the vegetable 11:38:33 11 gardens, the grazing areas? 11:38:40 12 A. I'm sorry, could you rephrase that question? 11:38:44 13 Q. What kind of activities do you anticipate resulting 11:38:47 14 from -- okay. 11:38:50 15 You're going to put in a garden, a vegetable garden? 11:38:51 16 A. Yeah, right. 11:38:54 17 Q. You're going to put in fruit tree orchards? 11:38:54 18 A. Yeah. 11:38:57 19 Q. You're going to put in an area for pasture? 11:38:57 20 A. Right. 11:39:00 21 Q. What kind of programs do you envision coming out of 11:39:00 22 these activities? 11:39:03 23 A. Well, I mean, just putting those things in is an 11:39:05 24 activity in themselves and, you know, teaching kids how to 11:39:09 25 till soil, how to build compost, how to build irrigation 11:39:12 75 1 systems and how to plant, propagate fruits and vegetables, 11:39:18 2 especially the vegetables, I guess, and, you know, proper 11:39:22 3 spacing, proper watering, mainly as just a tool for education 11:39:25 4 with the plants and the fruit trees. 11:39:32 5 I don't have a lot of experience with animal 11:39:35 6 husbandry. That's pretty limited. So I would probably be 11:39:38 7 partnering with somebody in the community to help with, you 11:39:43 8 know, the animal husbandry aspect of things if we get goats or 11:39:46 9 sheep or, you know, cattle. There is not a lot, really. I 11:39:51 10 mean, it's a lot more involved than I have, but I don't see 11:39:56 11 that as being an extensive part of our program. 11:39:59 12 Q. Is your lot a member of the Honopueo Community 11:40:16 13 Association? 11:40:22 14 A. Yes, we are. 11:40:22 15 Q. And how many members are part of this community 11:40:23 16 association? 11:40:27 17 A. Twelve. 11:40:27 18 Q. Okay. And we've talked about an easement access 11:40:29 19 that's adjacent or that's on your property that people will 11:40:37 20 have access through to get not only down to Mrs. Sunderland's 11:40:44 21 property and down to the ocean, but I guess for you folks to 11:40:49 22 get up to Akoni Pule Highway, etcetera? 11:40:54 23 A. That's right. 11:40:57 24 Q. Who controls or owns the easements? 11:40:57 25 A. The easement is owned by the Honopueo Community 11:41:02 76 1 Association. 11:41:06 2 Q. And did the association have what they call CC&Rs or 11:41:08 3 covenants conditions and -- 11:41:16 4 A. Yes. 11:41:17 5 Q. -- restrictions? 11:41:18 6 A. That's correct. We do have CC&Rs and black laws. 11:41:18 7 Q. And have those CC&Rs been recorded, to your 11:41:22 8 knowledge, in the Bureau of Conveyances? 11:41:26 9 A. Yes, they have. 11:41:28 10 Q. Okay. Have these CC&Rs ever been amended or changed 11:41:28 11 at any time? 11:41:32 12 A. Yes, they have. 11:41:33 13 Q. When was it amended or changed? 11:41:33 14 A. October 15th of 2005. 11:41:35 15 Q. In general, can you tell us in the CC&Rs, does the 11:41:39 16 CC&Rs address financial contributions regarding road 11:41:44 17 maintenance or road construction? 11:41:50 18 A. Extensively, yes, it does. Each lot -- the CC&Rs 11:41:52 19 were put together before the lots actually came out of escrow, 11:41:59 20 and at time of escrow we had formulas for that. We came 11:42:05 21 together as an association. We had umpteen hours of meetings 11:42:11 22 to determine who should pay what, and from those meetings we 11:42:18 23 had formulas for different segments of road, what the 11:42:22 24 contribution of each lot should be. 11:42:26 25 Q. If this application is granted -- 11:42:35 77 1 A. Yes. 11:42:36 2 Q. Do you anticipate your property share increasing? 11:42:37 3 A. In the road cost? 11:42:42 4 Q. Yes. 11:42:44 5 A. Absolutely. 11:42:44 6 Q. Concerns have been raised regarding planting within 11:43:02 7 this easement area. 11:43:10 8 Are you familiar with the concerns being raised? 11:43:11 9 A. Yes, I am. 11:43:15 10 Q. Okay. And to the best of your knowledge, is the 11:43:16 11 community association aware of these concerns as well? 11:43:23 12 A. Yes, they are. In fact, we had a meeting this past 11:43:25 13 Saturday and a committee was formed to make a recommendation 11:43:28 14 about the plants that were planted within the easement. 11:43:35 15 Q. So at the present time the association is 11:43:42 16 investigating and will probably take some action? 11:43:44 17 A. That is correct. 11:43:47 18 Q. Earlier during some of the public testimony at the 11:44:14 19 Planning Commission a concern had been raised that you and 11:44:20 20 your adjoining neighbor were doing an illegal subdivision. 11:44:26 21 Can you explain to the hearings officer what's going 11:44:32 22 on? 11:44:34 23 A. Oh. That is in reference to the PCRS that is 11:44:35 24 currently ongoing and should be done pretty soon between our 11:44:47 25 son and ourselves. When we originally contracted to purchase 11:44:52 78 1 the land, with Surety Kohala, our son bought the adjacent lot, 11:44:56 2 and these lots were supposed to be subdivided into 20-acre 11:45:05 3 parcels. This was a four-year process, at least, and during 11:45:12 4 that time, it was the decision of Surety to sell the lots 11:45:17 5 rather than going through the rezoning or resubdividing 11:45:24 6 process; that they would go back to the original TMK lot lines 11:45:27 7 from before this property was deconsolidated, I guess, or 11:45:34 8 consolidated into a seven-acre parcel. So the lot that we 11:45:40 9 purchased ended up being 36.85 acres, and our son's ended up 11:45:45 10 being 22 point (inaudible) acres, and we were sort of pooling 11:45:51 11 our resources then, and so in an effort to be equitable with 11:45:56 12 him, they were giving him seven acres of our land. 11:46:00 13 Q. Now, this is a consolidation resubdivision petition 11:46:03 14 filed with the Planning Department? 11:46:11 15 A. That is correct. 11:46:12 16 Q. And are any new lots being created? 11:46:13 17 A. No. 11:46:17 18 Q. It's just a changing of the acreages? 11:46:17 19 A. That's correct. 11:46:20 20 Q. Has the consolidation resubdivision application been 11:46:20 21 finally processed? 11:46:25 22 A. It's not final now. 11:46:27 23 Q. Do you have preliminary approval? 11:46:28 24 A. Yes, I believe so, yes. 11:46:30 25 MR. YAMAMOTO: Nothing further. 11:46:47 79 1 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Ms. Leithead-Todd, do 11:46:50 2 you have any questions? 11:46:55 3 BY MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: 11:46:55 4 Q. I have just a quick question on the -- I think it's 11:46:56 5 Honopueo Community Association. 11:47:00 6 A. Yes. 11:47:03 7 Q. On the CC&Rs regarding the maintenance of the 11:47:03 8 access, and you said it's been complicated and there are 11:47:06 9 formulas in it? 11:47:12 10 A. The maintenance, there is no formula right now for 11:47:14 11 maintenance other than one section where Jean Sunderland is 11:47:17 12 responsible for all of the maintenance on the section from the 11:47:23 13 Akoni Pule Highway to Pratt Road. It's now called Maluhia. I 11:47:31 14 believe the Union Market has been named and it's Maluhia. And 11:47:35 15 each other lot other than the Sunderland's is required to pay 11:47:39 16 a hundred dollars per year toward the maintenance of that 11:47:43 17 road. The maintenance on the other road as per our CC&Rs were 11:47:46 18 to be reviewed on an annual basis and lots would be assessed. 11:47:52 19 Q. Okay. If this camp facility goes up, then your use 11:47:57 20 of the access would increase? 11:48:03 21 A. That's correct. 11:48:05 22 Q. So would your share of the costs of maintaining the 11:48:06 23 access go up? 11:48:11 24 A. Yes. 11:48:12 25 Q. Okay. And then that would be something that would 11:48:13 80 1 be worked out by the community association? 11:48:16 2 A. Yes. 11:48:17 3 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Okay. No further questions. 11:48:22 4 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 11:48:25 5 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 11:48:27 6 Q. Mr. Sullivan, you say that the plan is to have 11:48:28 7 three acres of fruit orchards. 11:48:36 8 That is the built out? 11:48:39 9 A. That is correct. 11:48:40 10 Q. And right now you have, what, about an acre, half 11:48:40 11 acre? 11:48:44 12 A. About half an acre, yeah. 11:48:44 13 Q. And you've a small garden now, and your plan is to 11:48:47 14 have two acres of vegetable garden, correct? 11:48:50 15 A. Two to three, yeah, I think, um-hum. 11:48:53 16 Q. Two to three. 11:48:54 17 So five to six acres of fruits and vegetables is 11:48:55 18 what the plan is? 11:49:00 19 A. It's not really in stone right now. I mean, as need 11:49:02 20 progresses, I think I'd like to go bigger than that, but 11:49:05 21 that's, you know, conceptually what we'd like to start off 11:49:09 22 with. 11:49:12 23 Q. Right. So you would have no objection to making 11:49:13 24 that commitment to the Planning Department that you were going 11:49:15 25 to do that kind of agricultural venture? 11:49:18 81 1 A. Oh, no. 11:49:20 2 Q. That would be fine with you? 11:49:21 3 A. That would be, sure. 11:49:22 4 Q. Okay. When the application was filed, what was 11:49:23 5 mentioned as sources of water was the ditch water which we 11:49:28 6 know now is presently unavailable. 11:49:34 7 What are you using for your water for your fruit and 11:49:38 8 vegetable gardens now? 11:49:41 9 A. We are using county water at this time. 11:49:45 10 Q. County water. 11:49:45 11 Okay. Have you gone back to the county and 11:49:47 12 submitted a revised plan with this, because their response was 11:49:48 13 in accord with the fact that you were using ditch water for 11:49:59 14 this project? Or what do you plan to do for water for this 11:50:02 15 project for a hundred people? That's a lot of water. 11:50:07 16 A. Actually the ditch water will be up, will be 11:50:13 17 available to us, as you know, pretty soon. 11:50:17 18 Q. We hope. 11:50:21 19 A. Well, yeah. I mean, we're actually talking with 11:50:22 20 Surety right now, and as per Herman Fernandez, you know, we 11:50:25 21 have the ability to tap in, and the community association 11:50:32 22 voted last week to appropriate $5,000 for running a new pipe 11:50:37 23 and hooking up the current water availability that we have, 11:50:42 24 which is limited. So in my conversations with Surety Kohala, 11:50:47 25 it's deemed in all likelihood that the ditch will be up and 11:50:55 82 1 running within a year. 11:51:02 2 Q. Okay. And you feel like this additional hundred, 91 11:51:02 3 people on the land, your intention is to provide water for 11:51:06 4 that close to hundred people with ditch water; is that 11:51:12 5 correct? 11:51:15 6 A. No. There would be catchment. 11:51:15 7 Q. From -- 11:51:18 8 A. We're just going to -- and what it says in our 11:51:18 9 application that we will provide water to the standard of the 11:51:21 10 Safe Water Drinking Act, and I can't remember the exact 11:51:27 11 wording on it. Brian would probably be the better one to ask 11:51:30 12 on that. 11:51:34 13 Q. And that is hauling water in? 11:51:34 14 A. Hauling water in or from catchment and treatment of 11:51:37 15 catchment water, yes. 11:51:40 16 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. That's all I 11:51:44 17 have. 11:51:45 18 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Kako'o? 11:51:46 19 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 11:51:46 20 Q. Hi. 11:51:52 21 A. Hi. 11:51:53 22 Q. Can you state what your primary mission is here? 11:51:53 23 What's your real mission? What do you hope to accomplish, let 11:51:57 24 me get that clear? 11:52:02 25 A. My primary motivation is to serve the community of 11:52:02 83 1 Hawai'i. I have a heart for the people here and, you know, I 11:52:08 2 really, you know, want to see kids affected positively by 11:52:13 3 agriculture and, you know, the programs that we're running. I 11:52:21 4 just want to make -- I feel like we've been given a great gift 11:52:23 5 with this land and I don't consider it mine. I'm just passing 11:52:28 6 through here and I want to do the best I can with that land to 11:52:33 7 provide access and educational opportunities for the local 11:52:35 8 community. 11:52:42 9 Q. Thanks. Can you describe your background with 11:52:47 10 commercial agriculture? 11:52:51 11 A. I grew extensively in California and was a member of 11:52:53 12 a CCOF farm, a certified organic farm in Santa Barbara, 11:52:59 13 California, one of the first ones, and so, yeah, I have 11:53:04 14 extensive knowledge of how to do that. 11:53:08 15 Q. All right. So you mentioned earlier that the 11:53:12 16 project -- that only part of the land on the parcel is usable 11:53:18 17 for agriculture. 11:53:23 18 A. Actually, you know, in the gulch, as you can see, 11:53:25 19 I've got orchards and things in the gulch. As more money 11:53:28 20 comes available, I plan to grow coffee and other things that 11:53:33 21 are like cacao that would grow very good as an under story 11:53:36 22 plantings in the gulch. So that is, you know, usable land. 11:53:42 23 Q. So let me clarify. 11:53:51 24 A. Go ahead. 11:53:54 25 Q. You earlier said that some land is more suitable 11:53:54 84 1 than others to do agriculture. 11:53:57 2 A. It's very hard to get into. It's overgrown. I've 11:54:00 3 got about five acres of running bamboo down in there. It's 11:54:03 4 steep, so access is a problem, so it's going to be a number of 11:54:07 5 years before I can actually get in there and start to, you 11:54:12 6 know, plant things. 11:54:16 7 Q. I guess what I'm trying to understand is the parcel 11:54:18 8 appears to be mixed soils or mixed productivity, and I'm 11:54:22 9 wondering which part of that the project area's located in. 11:54:27 10 Is it in the prime agricultural part, or is it in 11:54:31 11 the very poor or difficult part? 11:54:35 12 A. It's interesting because the land has been -- you 11:54:39 13 know, as I dig up the land, I find areas that are just leveled 11:54:43 14 push piles, lots of concrete and poor soil quality, and a lot 11:54:48 15 of that is in the camp areas. There is a lot of rubbish from 11:54:53 16 the cane days, you know, and the soil is not as good as where 11:54:58 17 I've got the gardens located in the orchards located on the 11:55:02 18 land. 11:55:06 19 Q. All of which are in the project area? 11:55:07 20 A. No, some are outside, some are inside. 11:55:11 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Could you stand up and show 11:55:15 22 us on the map -- 11:55:17 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, sure. 11:55:18 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: -- where the orchards and 11:55:19 25 gardens are today and tell us what -- 11:55:21 85 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, this is our house here, and 11:55:23 2 behind here is our garden, our personal garden. We have fruit 11:55:26 3 trees that follow along here, the main road of citrus and all 11:55:31 4 that. That's what's currently there. This is good soil here, 11:55:35 5 and this is going to be fruit. This is inside the camp 11:55:40 6 boundary. 11:55:42 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So all that, the area you're 11:55:43 8 showing us where you have your fruit trees, that's good soil? 11:55:45 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's good soil, yeah, and this 11:55:48 10 area over here was like a push pile and it's very uneven. 11:55:53 11 There is a lot of palm trees here and a lot of -- I pulled out 11:55:56 12 a lot of concrete. It's the old weir system that I think they 11:55:59 13 just pushed it down over there. 11:56:03 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So what is -- I guess you'll 11:56:06 15 have to explain to us. 11:56:08 16 What is a push pile and what is a weir, weir system? 11:56:10 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. This property was in sugarcane 11:56:15 18 for a hundred plus years and it had a concrete U-shaped 11:56:17 19 concrete channel that used to run the water for irrigation. 11:56:22 20 CHARLIE ANDERSON: Flumes. 11:56:29 21 THE WITNESS: Flumes, yeah. 11:56:30 22 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Flumes. 11:56:33 23 THE WITNESS: So that's one -- I don't know. As 11:56:35 24 they changed the water system over to pipes, because I found 11:56:36 25 some old pipes on the property, too, they just, like, crushed. 11:56:41 86 1 They just ran over it with a bulldozer and pushed it, and so 11:56:44 2 this area over here is not the best suited for the 11:56:47 3 agriculture, and the soil quality there, too, is more I would 11:56:52 4 call poor than from my experience with soil than the other 11:56:56 5 areas. You know, it's not as friable. It doesn't have as 11:57:03 6 much organic matter. It's more rocky. 11:57:07 7 So this area here is really good. There is another 11:57:11 8 area over here that was pretty good down in here. There is 11:57:15 9 area in the pasture that's very good for -- conducive for 11:57:18 10 planting, and the same with up here. This is outside of the 11:57:21 11 camp boundary. 11:57:24 12 Does that answer your question? 11:57:27 13 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 11:57:27 14 Q. So then I'm being -- I'm led to understand, though, 11:57:30 15 that the entire project area was in the area that was 11:57:32 16 previously under cultivation for sugar, everything? 11:57:35 17 A. Everything in here was under cultivation for sugar, 11:57:38 18 yeah. 11:57:42 19 Q. Could you also clarify? I went to the Redwood 11:57:42 20 Alliance website, and the project map that's there is the same 11:57:46 21 similar sort of layout, but it shows a different project area. 11:57:49 22 I assume it was a previous version. In that one the project 11:57:53 23 area extends across the gulch. 11:57:56 24 Can you explain the difference between the maps, 11:57:58 25 which one is -- I assume this is the correct map; is that 11:58:00 87 1 right? 11:58:02 2 A. Yeah, this is the final map. I don't know, I 11:58:02 3 haven't actually been to that site, so I don't know. 11:58:05 4 Q. Oh. 11:58:07 5 A. I don't know. I worked on this map extensively, and 11:58:08 6 originally we were planning to go through the gulch and to 11:58:12 7 this other pasture area over here that I have leased out to 11:58:16 8 somebody, but going through the gulch created a lot of issues 11:58:22 9 that we didn't want to open up and also we reduced the scope 11:58:26 10 of the plan from 150 to 75 to accommodate the impact on the 11:58:30 11 neighbors, so we didn't really need to go into that area. 11:58:35 12 Q. Okay. So I presume it must be an old map, then. 11:58:41 13 A. Yeah, must be. I'll find out. I don't know. 11:58:44 14 Q. Okay. The only other question I had is that Mr. 11:58:47 15 Blake mentioned that there is a possibility that the access 11:58:54 16 road could be turned into a path instead. 11:58:58 17 A. No, the access road is an access road. I think you 11:59:02 18 misunderstand. 11:59:06 19 Q. Okay. 11:59:07 20 A. That road is a 20-foot wide gravel road that has to 11:59:07 21 remain open for the retreat center. 11:59:13 22 Q. But what about public vehicular access? 11:59:16 23 A. That goes right -- it all goes right through here, 11:59:19 24 down through here. 11:59:22 25 Q. Okay. 11:59:23 88 1 A. And the camp is here. It will have an entrance here 11:59:23 2 somewhere and, you know, there is -- I did do some planting of 11:59:26 3 areca palms along the road as a visual and sort of a light and 11:59:32 4 dust blocker, the gravel road. The trade winds come 11:59:38 5 predominantly from this direction, and so without a vegetation 11:59:41 6 wall, it's just going to get dusted out with the traffic on 11:59:45 7 the road. 11:59:49 8 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. I have no further 11:59:53 9 questions. 11:59:53 10 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: I have a couple questions. 11:59:57 11 Q. What is the access to the gulch right now? Do you 12:00:04 12 go there on foot? Is that what you do? 12:00:08 13 A. Yeah. That's the only way in. 12:00:09 14 Q. And you follow a path down? 12:00:10 15 A. That's correct. 12:00:12 16 Q. And so have you ever found any archeological sites 12:00:12 17 in the gulch? 12:00:15 18 A. In the gulch, on the eastern gulch there was. Jean 12:00:17 19 actually -- I had a walk with Jean one time and we found -- 12:00:21 20 was that a birthing stone you told me? 12:00:25 21 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Oh, there at the back? 12:00:27 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 12:00:29 23 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Up on your property? 12:00:29 24 THE WITNESS: On the eastern gulch. 12:00:31 25 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: It is believed to be a 12:00:33 89 1 birthing stone, that is correct. 12:00:35 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That's only thing I've found 12:00:36 3 and that's -- 12:00:38 4 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: At the bottom of the gulch, 12:00:39 5 actually. 12:00:41 6 THE WITNESS: It's on the bottom of the gulch right 12:00:41 7 in here. This seasonal creek bed comes through like this and 12:00:43 8 it's right in here. This is a sheer drop. It's probably 12:00:47 9 about a hundred feet down, and it's very steep to get to. 12:00:50 10 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So could you just put a B on 12:00:54 11 there where you believe the birthing stone is located? 12:00:56 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. (Witness complies.) 12:01:00 13 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 12:01:09 14 Q. Are there any caves in the gulches? 12:01:10 15 A. No, not that I've found. 12:01:12 16 Q. Okay. I noticed that the State Historic 12:01:13 17 Preservation Division suggested that you do an archeological 12:01:20 18 inventory survey on September 18th, 2006. 12:01:22 19 Was that ever done? 12:01:29 20 A. That would probably be a better question for Brian 12:01:32 21 than myself. There has not been an archeological site -- I 12:01:33 22 believe the Planning Department, from my knowledge, said that 12:01:37 23 because the area, the camp was extensively in agriculture for 12:01:40 24 over a hundred years that that didn't have to be done. I'll 12:01:47 25 let Brian -- yeah. 12:01:51 90 1 Q. Well, do you know, did Hawaiians live in that area 12:01:53 2 where your property is located prior to the cultivation of 12:01:56 3 sugar? 12:02:01 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 12:02:01 5 Q. Okay. Ms. Sunderland was asking you questions about 12:02:12 6 water, and I see that the recommendation of the director on 12:02:14 7 No. 10 and No. 14 both require bottled water or potable water 12:02:22 8 for the guests and for the camping and retreat center. 12:02:28 9 And will you have facilities to hold the water on 12:02:32 10 the premises? 12:02:35 11 A. Yes. One map has. 12:02:36 12 Q. And is that how the water is handled in this area, 12:02:41 13 that people bring their own water in? 12:02:44 14 A. Well, a lot of people use either county water or 12:02:47 15 catchment water, and we plan to catch water as well. 12:02:52 16 Q. Did you plan to use county water as well? 12:02:56 17 A. No. There's only one county meter for this lot, and 12:02:59 18 we've used that for our residential lot. 12:03:03 19 Q. And there's no possibility of any other meters on 12:03:11 20 the property, county meters? 12:03:15 21 A. I'm not sure at this time. 12:03:19 22 Q. Do the vegetables and the fruit trees that you're 12:03:25 23 planning to grow, the agricultural activities you're planning 12:03:29 24 to engage in, do they require water, given the natural 12:03:32 25 environment? 12:03:39 91 1 A. Yeah, especially, you know, to start the fruit 12:03:41 2 trees. They need a lot of water. Once they get established 12:03:44 3 they are pretty good. We get an annual rainfall since I've 12:03:48 4 lived there has been about 55 inches of rain per year. The 12:03:51 5 vegetable garden would require much more water and it would 12:03:58 6 not be a feasible undertaking without the advent of the ditch 12:04:04 7 water. We're waiting to -- we have it coming in a week or 12:04:11 8 two. What they have they are pumping out of wells right now, 12:04:17 9 Surety, but the ditch should be up and running in a year, I'm 12:04:21 10 told. 12:04:25 11 Q. So the ditch water is going to be well water? 12:04:25 12 A. It is well water right now. Currently they are 12:04:27 13 pumping from a couple of wells and they are servicing -- there 12:04:30 14 is a nursery mauka of our property that's receiving that, and 12:04:33 15 so we're -- you know, we're kind of tapping in after them. 12:04:38 16 Q. And do you pay Surety for that water? 12:04:46 17 A. Fifty cents per thousand gallons. 12:04:49 18 Q. Is that available to anybody in the neighborhood who 12:04:51 19 wants to hook up to that, or is it first come, first served? 12:04:54 20 A. Well, that's a good question, one for Surety, I 12:05:00 21 think, but either we contracted with them -- all the members 12:05:05 22 of Honopueo Community Association have access to that water, 12:05:08 23 and all the surrounding properties have access to that water 12:05:15 24 as far as I know. Residential lots I don't believe have 12:05:19 25 access to it. 12:05:23 92 1 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. I don't have further 12:05:27 2 questions. 12:05:27 3 Ms. Leithead-Todd? 12:05:30 4 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I have, for clarification 12:05:32 5 purposes, and part of that is because the record is going to 12:05:33 6 be written and I wanted to clarify. 12:05:36 7 Q. When, Mr. Sullivan, you were up at the map of the 12:05:39 8 site plan -- 12:05:44 9 A. Yes. 12:05:45 10 Q. -- and you were pointing out an area that you refer 12:05:45 11 to as good soil in the pasture area, that was outside -- 12:05:49 12 A. Yes, outside. 12:05:55 13 Q. -- of the proposed permit area? 12:05:56 14 A. Correct. 12:05:59 15 Q. Similarly, the birthing stone that you were 12:06:00 16 referring to is also outside of the permit area? 12:06:04 17 A. That's correct. 12:06:07 18 Q. Okay. And I also wanted to clarify. 12:06:09 19 The access road that we are referring to, who owns 12:06:13 20 that portion of the access road that is shown on the site map? 12:06:19 21 A. Who owns the property? 12:06:23 22 Q. Who owns the property? 12:06:24 23 A. I do. 12:06:26 24 Q. You own it, and so you own on both sides of that 12:06:26 25 access road? 12:06:30 93 1 A. That is correct. 12:06:31 2 Q. So you own the fee simple title, but there is 12:06:32 3 access, right, to both the Sunderland's, who are makai of you, 12:06:39 4 as well as to the general public across that access, and it 12:06:43 5 must be retained in an open and traversable condition? 12:06:48 6 A. That's correct. 12:06:53 7 Q. Now, the other thing I wanted to clarify is you were 12:06:59 8 asked a question if Hawaiians, native Hawaiians had lived in 12:07:02 9 this area, and you said not to your knowledge. 12:07:08 10 How long have you lived in the Kohala area? 12:07:10 11 A. Five years now. 12:07:14 12 Q. Five years, okay. 12:07:16 13 So you are -- are you familiar with the history of 12:07:18 14 Hawaiian cultivation or Hawaiian occupation of the Kohala 12:07:27 15 area? 12:07:31 16 A. Yes, I am. 12:07:31 17 Q. And what is that based on? 12:07:32 18 A. Just, you know, books and, you know, from the 12:07:34 19 library and things like that. I mean, I was referenced -- 12:07:38 20 referencing to what I've read in books is that this land 12:07:42 21 was -- you know, the gulch was occupied to the east, but there 12:07:47 22 is no archeological sites on the property. That's what I was 12:07:53 23 referring to. So aside from that, we can assume that 12:07:57 24 Hawaiians lived all over the island, yeah. 12:08:04 25 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Okay. I just wanted to clarify 12:08:04 94 1 the extent of knowledge that you were basing those statements 12:08:06 2 on. 12:08:10 3 Okay. Thank you. 12:08:12 4 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I have one other question 12:08:14 5 for clarification. 12:08:15 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead. 12:08:16 7 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 12:08:17 8 Q. Given the circumstance where the agricultural 12:08:18 9 component of that plan was not possible, say if there was a 12:08:21 10 lack of water or something like that? 12:08:24 11 A. Yeah. 12:08:25 12 Q. Would that threaten the other portions of the 12:08:26 13 retreat center portion of the plan? 12:08:29 14 A. No, I don't think so and I think we would be able to 12:08:32 15 do agriculture. It just wouldn't be as extensive because you 12:08:35 16 can only do a limited amount. The other thing is there's 12:08:40 17 other resources. We could drill a well perhaps. So there are 12:08:43 18 other ways to get water. Right now the most economically 12:08:46 19 feasible is to use the ditch water. 12:08:51 20 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. Thank you. 12:08:54 21 MR. YAMAMOTO: I just need to clarify one. 12:08:57 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 12:08:59 23 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 12:08:59 24 BY MR. YAMAMOTO: 12:09:00 25 Q. The six-acre permit, the site that you're seeking 12:09:03 95 1 for the permit? 12:09:06 2 A. Yeah. 12:09:07 3 Q. Is that where all the buildings and campsites, 12:09:07 4 etcetera, would be? 12:09:11 5 A. Yes. 12:09:12 6 MR. YAMAMOTO: Nothing further. 12:09:16 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So we'll break for 12:09:19 8 lunch. It's ten past twelve right now, and why don't we come 12:09:20 9 back at 1:30. 12:09:26 10 (Lunch recess was taken from 12:09 to 1:36 p.m.) 12:09:28 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So let's go back on 13:35:57 12 the record. 13:36:13 13 Mr. Yamamoto, you want to call your next witness? 13:36:15 14 MR. YAMAMOTO: My final witness I'm calling is Brian 13:36:17 15 Nishimura. 13:36:22 16 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Could you swear the witness 13:36:22 17 in. 13:36:30 18 BRIAN T. NISHIMURA, 13:36:32 19 Having been first duly sworn, 13:36:32 20 testified upon his oath as follows: 13:36:32 21 MR. YAMAMOTO: Based on his Declaration, I would ask 13:36:36 22 that Mr. Nishimura be qualified as an expert in planning in 13:36:42 23 the County of Hawai'i. 13:36:46 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Anybody have any objections 13:36:49 25 to that? 13:36:50 96 1 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No objections. 13:36:52 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Hearing no objections 13:36:53 3 and having reviewed his Declaration and the recitation of his 13:36:55 4 qualifications, I find him to be so qualified. 13:37:01 5 MR. YAMAMOTO: Thank you. 13:37:05 6 Q. Mr. Nishimura, a concern has been raised about the 13:37:05 7 use of special permits to allow this campground conference 13:37:10 8 center site on agricultural land. 13:37:16 9 Based on your experience and expertise, what is the 13:37:20 10 process or procedure that has been used in the County of 13:37:24 11 Hawai'i in processing land use, land uses in an agricultural 13:37:28 12 district? 13:37:35 13 A. Those uses which are not listed as permitted uses 13:37:37 14 within the state county's agricultural district, if proposed, 13:37:43 15 has option, I guess, of seeking a state land use boundary 13:37:48 16 amendment or a special permit process. In situations in which 13:37:55 17 the criteria for a boundary amendment would prove to be 13:38:03 18 inappropriate, a special permit application has been the 13:38:11 19 process utilized for those types of applications. 13:38:16 20 Q. One follow-up, a follow-up question. 13:38:21 21 For state land use boundary amendments, does every 13:38:25 22 application have to go before the State Land Use Commission? 13:38:29 23 A. No. Those applications which involve less than 13:38:33 24 15 acres of land are processed by the County of Hawai'i. 13:38:39 25 Q. Now, in the County of Hawai'i, is the special permit 13:38:44 97 1 an accepted means of regulating use of agricultural lands? 13:38:50 2 A. Yes. 13:38:56 3 Q. Okay. And this is the process that has been used by 13:38:57 4 Planning Department as well? 13:39:03 5 A. Yes. 13:39:04 6 Q. And you have gone over the requirements in Rule 6-6 13:39:11 7 and 6-(3)(b) subsection (5) of the rules of the Planning 13:39:15 8 Commission? 13:39:20 9 A. Yes. 13:39:20 10 Q. And in your analysis and in your opinion, does this 13:39:21 11 application meet those standards -- 13:39:27 12 A. Yes. 13:39:28 13 Q. -- of unusual and reasonable use? 13:39:29 14 A. Yes, it does. 13:39:32 15 Q. There was some question during earlier testimony 13:39:44 16 with regard to your dealings with historic preservation. 13:39:47 17 Can you supplement the record and tell us what 13:39:56 18 transpired basically? 13:39:59 19 A. Okay. Prior to the application being submitted, I 13:40:00 20 wrote a letter to the State Historic Preservation Office, and 13:40:05 21 that letter is dated January 27th, 2006. It is part of the 13:40:08 22 record that was turned in to the Planning Department as part 13:40:14 23 of the application, and that letter requests the State 13:40:19 24 Historic Preservation Division to make a finding of a no 13:40:27 25 effect determination for the special permit application. And 13:40:32 98 1 that request is based on my experience in dealing with other 13:40:35 2 land use applications in the Kohala district in which I have 13:40:41 3 reviewed a number of different archeological surveys and 13:40:46 4 reports for other properties and properties in the vicinity in 13:40:49 5 which areas that have been previously disturbed by sugarcane 13:40:55 6 cultivation. And keep in mind that in this particular area 13:41:02 7 and other areas of North Kohala, this cultivation of sugar has 13:41:07 8 occurred over a period of over a hundred years. The finding 13:41:13 9 has been that it is highly unlikely to find any archeological 13:41:16 10 resources remaining on properties that were previously 13:41:22 11 cultivated. 13:41:26 12 There are exceptions, particularly in areas in which 13:41:28 13 cultivation did not occur as in the gulches which also are 13:41:34 14 present on this property. The likelihood of finding 13:41:38 15 archeological resources within the gulch areas, the 13:41:42 16 probability of finding archeological resources is much higher 13:41:49 17 in those undisturbed areas than it would be in the flat areas 13:41:53 18 that were previously cultivated. And based on that knowledge 13:41:59 19 and experience and review of other reports, it was my 13:42:03 20 professional opinion that we did not need to prepare an 13:42:08 21 archeological survey because the only area that we are 13:42:12 22 proposing in this application to be utilized as part of the 13:42:17 23 special permit application is entirely within the area that 13:42:20 24 has been previously cultivated. 13:42:24 25 Anyway, so I sent this letter in on January 27th, 13:42:28 99 1 2006. The response that I think Ms. Broder referred to 13:42:33 2 previously is dated in September. That letter came in after 13:42:38 3 the public hearing had already been scheduled. The Planning 13:42:43 4 Department had already provided their background -- excuse me, 13:42:47 5 the recommendation on the application, and we did not do 13:42:52 6 anything further to respond to that letter in September. 13:42:56 7 It is still our contention that based on what I've 13:43:03 8 said previously that we still feel that the work being or the 13:43:10 9 activity being proposed in the six acres of this application 13:43:14 10 should not trigger a requirement for an archeological survey. 13:43:21 11 Q. It's your understanding that the North Kohala 13:43:43 12 District of the Island of Hawai'i has an old development plan, 13:43:46 13 correct? 13:43:49 14 A. Yes. 13:43:50 15 Q. And in drafting up and putting together this 13:43:51 16 application, you referenced that particular development plan? 13:43:54 17 A. Yes. 13:43:59 18 Q. Which had certain goals and objectives? 13:43:59 19 A. Yes. 13:44:02 20 Q. Okay. And in your opinion, does this application 13:44:02 21 satis -- or help to meet goals and objectives set up in this 13:44:10 22 North Kohala development plan? 13:44:14 23 A. Well, we cited an example of a policy in the North 13:44:16 24 Kohala Community Development Plan in one of the applications 13:44:22 25 indicating that that particular policy, this particular 13:44:26 100 1 project is consistent. 13:44:31 2 Q. Okay. There was also -- are you familiar with the 13:44:33 3 Makapala Center? 13:44:38 4 A. No, I'm not. 13:44:42 5 MR. YAMAMOTO: Okay. Nothing further. 13:44:53 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Planning Department, do you 13:44:56 7 have any questions? 13:44:58 8 BY MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: 13:45:01 9 Q. Mr. Nishimura, as you understand the application, 13:45:02 10 doesn't Alliance plan to have outdoor activities that may go 13:45:08 11 beyond the permit area because there might be hiking and 13:45:13 12 exploration by the campers? 13:45:18 13 A. That's correct. However, those activities would be 13:45:21 14 off the property, that if there are excursions or activities 13:45:29 15 that are scheduled as part of the program, they may take the 13:45:34 16 participants on excursions or to activities that may occur off 13:45:41 17 the property. These hiking and different kinds of activities 13:45:47 18 are not intended to occur on the property, itself. 13:45:52 19 Q. You're aware of the September 18th letter from 13:45:57 20 DLNR's State Historic Preservation Division? 13:46:01 21 A. Yes, I am. 13:46:05 22 Q. And you're aware that it has a recommendation that 13:46:06 23 an archeological inventory survey be conducted on the 13:46:09 24 property? 13:46:13 25 A. Yes. 13:46:13 101 1 Q. Okay. And that that came in after your application 13:46:15 2 and after the department's recommendation? 13:46:23 3 A. That's correct. 13:46:25 4 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Okay. No other questions for 13:46:46 5 Mr. Nishimura. 13:46:47 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 13:46:50 7 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 13:46:53 8 Q. You have applied for 15 acres when six are being 13:46:54 9 used for the retreat. 13:46:59 10 Can you explain that discrepancy? 13:47:03 11 A. The application is only for six acres. 13:47:06 12 Q. Yes. And the 15, can you again explain what the 13:47:08 13 15 acres was about? It's only for six acres; has nothing to 13:47:15 14 do with 15 acres? 13:47:20 15 A. I'm not clear on what 15 acres you're referring to 13:47:21 16 or where that comes from because the application, itself, 13:47:24 17 states that it is for six acres of land. 13:47:27 18 Q. Okay. So that this is limited to six acres? 13:47:31 19 A. Yes. 13:47:34 20 Q. Okay. And then when you say that the hiking will be 13:47:34 21 off property, what do you have in mind? I mean, what do you 13:47:38 22 mean by "off property"? 13:47:42 23 A. That there are many different areas on the Big 13:47:44 24 Island that are utilized by hikers or other, you know, people 13:47:48 25 seeking outdoor adventures or outdoor activities. I don't 13:47:56 102 1 think it's the intent of the applicant to restrict all 13:48:02 2 activities of the people coming to the camp to be entirely 13:48:09 3 activities within the property. I think it is up to the 13:48:18 4 individuals or the groups that are making these arrangements 13:48:24 5 that they may seek other activities that are off the property. 13:48:27 6 Q. Such as going to the beach? 13:48:32 7 A. Or going camping -- I mean, excuse me, going hiking 13:48:34 8 or, you know, things of that nature, yes. 13:48:37 9 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Okay. 13:48:41 10 THE WITNESS: And can I further clarify? I would 13:48:42 11 imagine that these would be day excursions or half day 13:48:46 12 excursions that would take them off the property but return 13:48:51 13 them back on site. 13:48:56 14 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 13:48:59 15 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Any further questions? 13:49:04 16 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: No further questions. Thank 13:49:06 17 you. 13:49:07 18 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Mr. Withington? 13:49:07 19 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 13:49:10 20 Q. First I'd like to clarify one of these last 13:49:11 21 questions. I believe earlier testimony that the 15, the lease 13:49:14 22 agreement with Alliance is up to 15 acres and this project is 13:49:19 23 six acres. 13:49:23 24 So the question is: What is your -- what is your 13:49:24 25 understanding of why did they choose up to 15 acres? What is 13:49:29 103 1 the purpose for that? 13:49:34 2 A. I think it's a problem because of the sequence of 13:49:35 3 events that occurred that the rental agreement -- and I want 13:49:40 4 to clarify that the rental agreement covers the entire 13:49:46 5 36 acres, that Alliance Redwoods has a rental agreement that 13:49:50 6 covers the entire property. The rental agreement specifies 13:49:54 7 that they may utilize up to 15 acres of that 36 acres for the 13:50:00 8 improvements necessary for the camp, but this occurred before 13:50:07 9 the final application was completed, before the site plan was 13:50:15 10 completed. They were just looking at options for utilizing 13:50:19 11 the property, and when the final application was completed and 13:50:28 12 prepared, I think it was clear that, you know, at one time 13:50:33 13 they were contemplating a much larger facility, but at the 13:50:40 14 time the application was finalized we cut it back down to 75 13:50:45 15 people, and so the amount of land that they felt was needed 13:50:51 16 was reduced and so the application was prepared to show a 13:50:53 17 six-acre application. 13:50:59 18 So the only reason why the rental agreement refers 13:51:02 19 to 15 acres was it was done prior, earlier in the process 13:51:06 20 before the -- before the application was finalized, and it 13:51:10 21 indicated a maximum usage, so to speak, that could be 13:51:17 22 considered for Alliance Redwoods' improvements but does not 13:51:23 23 reflect the actual amount of land that's being requested as 13:51:30 24 part of the application. 13:51:34 25 Q. You also stated in your written testimony that the 13:51:37 104 1 issuance of another special permit for a retreat center 13:51:42 2 nearby, albeit considerably smaller than this one, was a 13:51:47 3 precedent for approving this one. 13:51:51 4 Do you think it would be conceivable that another 13:51:54 5 special permit could be requested for the remainder of the 13:51:58 6 lease of this less than 15 acres for this parcel of land, and 13:52:01 7 would you then also consider the issuance of this permit be a 13:52:06 8 precedent to approve that second one? 13:52:11 9 A. On the same property? 13:52:13 10 Q. Yeah. 13:52:14 11 A. Well, all I can say is, you know, what the client 13:52:14 12 has indicated to me in terms of their plans and all of the 13:52:19 13 activities, of all the improvements that they foresee for this 13:52:25 14 project can be contained within the six acres. 13:52:31 15 Q. In your professional opinion is that a possible 13:52:34 16 scenario, though? 13:52:37 17 A. Well, it's anything is possible. 13:52:40 18 Q. Okay. I also have some questions about your 13:52:46 19 statements about interpretation of the land use law. You 13:52:49 20 indicated earlier that when the boundary change was 13:52:53 21 inappropriate that a special permit was the recommended 13:52:57 22 method. 13:53:03 23 A. (Witness nods head.) 13:53:03 24 Q. And can you tell us why a boundary change is 13:53:04 25 inappropriate in this case? 13:53:07 105 1 A. Well, largely in terms of proximity to existing 13:53:08 2 urban areas, or what the County General Plan designation may 13:53:12 3 be. If, for example, if the County General Plan designation 13:53:18 4 for the property was for an urban use, then my recommendation 13:53:22 5 to the applicant would have been to go for a voucher rather 13:53:29 6 than a special permit, but because it is the general plan 13:53:34 7 designation is an agricultural designation, the appropriate 13:53:39 8 procedure to utilize is special permit. 13:53:42 9 Q. So you're saying that after evaluation of the 13:53:45 10 general plan, a boundary amendment would likely not be 13:53:48 11 permitted in this area? 13:53:52 12 A. That's correct. 13:53:53 13 Q. And yet you also state that your evaluation of the 13:53:55 14 general plan is that it does support a special permit for the 13:53:58 15 same use in this area? 13:54:02 16 A. Well, I'm looking at, you know, the project in its 13:54:04 17 totality, and that if you look at all of the -- see, all of 13:54:07 18 the agricultural land in the County of Hawai'i that was once 13:54:16 19 cultivated in sugar, which includes thousands and thousands of 13:54:20 20 acres, not only in the North Kohala District, but all along 13:54:25 21 the Hamakua Coast and extending into the Ka'u District, into 13:54:29 22 Puna, there were thousands of acres that were once cultivated 13:54:34 23 in sugar. The majority of these formerly sugar lands are 13:54:38 24 designated and remain in the agricultural designation. They 13:54:42 25 are probably considered important agricultural land and are 13:54:48 106 1 valued for that purpose, but we have to recognize that there 13:54:53 2 has been a change in the economy on this island. 13:54:59 3 There is no longer a single acre being cultivated in 13:55:05 4 sugar at this time, and sugar, while once dominating the 13:55:09 5 island's economy is no longer part of the economy. So there 13:55:19 6 is a transition in the agricultural industry that is 13:55:21 7 occurring. Part of that transition involves a transition from 13:55:26 8 large, huge lots that may be hundreds of acres in size down to 13:55:32 9 smaller agricultural parcels. And as you can see, much of the 13:55:37 10 land that was formerly cultivated in sugar are either 13:55:44 11 underutilized or are being -- or not being utilized at all for 13:55:48 12 an agricultural purpose. And you can look at even some of the 13:55:53 13 lands within the same subdivision that this property is 13:55:58 14 situated in that are not being cultivated. 13:56:01 15 I think that this project is an example of an 13:56:05 16 innovative look at trying to maintain agricultural use on the 13:56:10 17 property or increasing the agricultural productivity of the 13:56:16 18 property while at the same time making it financially feasible 13:56:21 19 for the lot owner to do that. And I think the mix of uses 13:56:26 20 that is being proposed is not detrimental to agricultural 13:56:31 21 activity or agricultural -- to agricultural industry or 13:56:38 22 agricultural goals and objectives because I think that it's 13:56:45 23 positive. It will have a positive affect by increasing the 13:56:54 24 acreage being cultivated than what is presently now. 13:56:58 25 Q. Okay. 13:57:05 107 1 A. And for that reason I think that it is consistent 13:57:06 2 with the general plan. 13:57:09 3 Q. Okay. And what -- in your understanding why, if 13:57:14 4 agricultural used to be so extensive in this area, why is it 13:57:18 5 no longer viable in this area? 13:57:23 6 A. There are outside forces that I guess make it 13:57:29 7 economically not feasible. 13:57:37 8 Q. Like claimed value? 13:57:41 9 A. That could be one of the factors. 13:57:44 10 Q. Then you stated earlier, you stated also that one of 13:57:48 11 the criteria you mentioned for issuance of a special permit 13:57:56 12 was the use was not listed as -- what's the term used in the 13:57:59 13 land -- an accepted use or identified -- 13:58:05 14 A. Permitted use. 13:58:08 15 Q. Permitted use. But things like overnight camping 13:58:09 16 are listed under permitted uses as something that's not 13:58:12 17 permitted. 13:58:16 18 And so how does your interpretation of that 13:58:16 19 situation lead you to believe that special permits are 13:58:21 20 appropriate for something like overnight camping? 13:58:23 21 A. The statute does not prohibit a special permit 13:58:26 22 application for that particular use. 13:58:34 23 Q. It says it prohibits special use permits for any -- 13:58:40 24 what was the word of it, except for anything which is in 13:58:49 25 conflict with the rest of the chapter. 13:58:52 108 1 A. That's correct. And I just went through a 13:58:55 2 discussion about ongoing agricultural activity and how this 13:58:58 3 application will enhance the agricultural productivity of this 13:59:03 4 property. 13:59:10 5 Q. All right. Maybe I can clarify that a little bit. 13:59:12 6 In your understanding, how does a use which is 13:59:19 7 prohibited in Chapter 205, how can -- how is it exempt from 13:59:23 8 the clause in the section on special permits which prohibits 13:59:29 9 the issuance of special permits for agricultural land if any 13:59:32 10 of the activities would violate any other sections of the law, 13:59:36 11 of Chapter 205? Would you like me to read that section 13:59:40 12 verbatim? 13:59:45 13 A. Yeah, why don't you read it for me. 13:59:46 14 Q. Okay. This is 205-6, section C, "The County 13:59:48 15 Planning Commission may under such protective restrictions as 14:00:04 16 may be deemed necessary to permit the desired use, but only 14:00:07 17 when the use would promote the effectiveness and objectives of 14:00:10 18 this chapter, provided that a use be designated important 14:00:13 19 agricultural lands shall not conflict with any part of this 14:00:17 20 chapter." 14:00:21 21 And then earlier in Section 205-4 is the clause 14:00:24 22 where it prohibits overnight camping. 14:00:29 23 A. There is. If you go to the section relating to 14:00:33 24 special permits, it indicates that you can -- that any use 14:00:37 25 that is not allowed that is not expressly permitted in the 14:00:44 109 1 listed as a permitted use in the agricultural restriction may 14:00:50 2 be applied for through this special permit process. 14:00:54 3 Q. Right. But then it says that it shall not conflict 14:01:02 4 with any other part of this chapter. So how did like your 14:01:06 5 reading -- so are you saying then that your reading is that a 14:01:11 6 special permit can therefore override any of the restrictive 14:01:16 7 measures in Chapter 205? 14:01:23 8 A. Yes. 14:01:25 9 Q. Okay. I was interested also earlier that you 14:01:31 10 mentioned that the consultation with the Land Use Commission 14:01:34 11 was not required, and I'm curious if you could also help us 14:01:38 12 understand this in light of the same Section 205-6, subsection 14:01:44 13 (d), which indicates that land which is greater than 15 acres 14:01:52 14 or for lands designated as important agricultural lands shall 14:01:58 15 be subject to approval by the Land Use Commission. 14:02:03 16 And so actually this is -- I apologize for forming 14:02:07 17 this poorly, but I also want to make sure that for the record 14:02:11 18 that this is -- this land is designated as important 14:02:14 19 agricultural land. 14:02:19 20 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: It's not. 14:02:24 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Well, the designation of the 14:02:26 22 lands has already been done, so that is part of the record. 14:02:31 23 It really doesn't -- 14:02:35 24 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. 14:02:36 25 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: You understand what I mean? 14:02:37 110 1 I mean the witness can tell you what's in the paperwork 14:02:38 2 already. 14:02:42 3 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I'll point out in the 14:02:43 4 application it states that the land is classified as important 14:02:44 5 agricultural land. 14:02:47 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So noted. 14:02:48 7 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: So the question is: How can 14:02:56 8 this be so? 14:02:58 9 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: How can what be so? 14:02:59 10 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 14:03:02 11 Q. How is it that the Land Use Commission does not need 14:03:03 12 to approve this special permit? 14:03:05 13 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Madame hearings officer, I think 14:03:12 14 there's some confusion here that Mr. Withington is referring 14:03:16 15 to the county's LUPAG (phonetic) map designation of important 14:03:23 16 agricultural land, which is different from the state land use, 14:03:29 17 and I think that's what's causing the confusion here. That is 14:03:36 18 not a state designation, and I think that's -- 14:03:41 19 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. 14:03:46 20 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: -- what is going on here. 14:03:47 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Well, I would suggest maybe 14:03:49 22 that we move on because -- 14:03:51 23 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. 14:03:52 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: -- what you're really trying 14:03:52 25 to do is make a legal argument -- 14:03:55 111 1 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: You're right. 14:03:57 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: -- through the witness, and 14:03:58 3 you don't really need the answers of the witness to make your 14:03:59 4 legal argument. If you want to ask him, and I also note that 14:04:01 5 I did qualify him as an expert in planning, but I didn't give 14:04:06 6 him -- I didn't qualify him as an expert lawyer, but if you 14:04:12 7 want to ask him what the pattern and practices of the county 14:04:15 8 are in handling this special permit, because of his knowledge 14:04:18 9 as a planner I think that would be appropriate, but you can 14:04:22 10 make your arguments to me at a later point as to what the 14:04:25 11 proper interpretation of the statute would be. 14:04:29 12 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. 14:04:32 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So whether he says so or he 14:04:33 14 doesn't say so, it's still going to be on a legal issue. It's 14:04:37 15 going to be what, you know, what is required legally. 14:04:43 16 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I understand. I will 14:04:47 17 restrict myself to issues of planning. 14:04:49 18 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 14:04:51 19 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 14:04:53 20 Q. So given that -- 14:04:53 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Well, just to further 14:04:56 22 clarify, I mean obviously issues of land intersect with legal 14:04:57 23 issues, but nevertheless, it seems like because of the 14:05:01 24 confusion I'm just leaving you the option of making your 14:05:06 25 arguments as a later point in time. 14:05:11 112 1 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Your point is well received. 14:05:13 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 14:05:15 3 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 14:05:19 4 Q. So are you aware that if this permit is granted the 14:05:20 5 number of overnight visitors that can be accommodated in North 14:05:22 6 Kohala by retreat centers that have been approved by special 14:05:26 7 permits alone exceed 600? 14:05:29 8 A. No, I'm not aware of that. 14:05:32 9 Q. Are you aware that this is the capacity or that this 14:05:36 10 capacity is on par with the combined capacity of hotels like 14:05:39 11 the Mauna Kea Hotel and the Hapuna Prince together? 14:05:44 12 A. I'm not aware of that. 14:05:50 13 Q. In the process of this have you evaluated what the 14:05:53 14 cumulative impacts of these type of facilities are doing to 14:05:56 15 North Kohala? 14:06:01 16 A. Well, in terms of the issue of the number of 14:06:06 17 facilities that have been approved and allowed, we have looked 14:06:10 18 at the responses from the churches and community organizations 14:06:23 19 that have responded to our inquiries regarding the need for 14:06:28 20 such facilities, and the responses have been overwhelming. 14:06:32 21 The constant feedback that we've gotten is that there isn't 14:06:36 22 sufficient areas on this island for this type of activity and 14:06:41 23 there is a tremendous need for that. And we feel that need 14:06:48 24 has been demonstrated by the overwhelming number of letters of 14:06:56 25 support that have been submitted on the record and, you know, 14:07:06 113 1 clearly what we are trying to do is, you know, feel like we 14:07:10 2 are fulfilling a community need. And whether there are other 14:07:17 3 accommodations that have been approved for one reason or 14:07:25 4 another, they may be too expensive, they may be inappropriate 14:07:27 5 for the type of clientele that the applicant is trying to 14:07:31 6 serve, so there may be a number of reasons why these other 14:07:35 7 facilities may not suit the needs of the community that this 14:07:40 8 applicant is trying to address. So we feel that the impact 14:07:48 9 that is being generated by this particular applicant is not 14:07:56 10 overwhelming and is not something that would be detrimental to 14:08:05 11 the community at North Kohala. 14:08:11 12 Q. I understand that, but my question was whether you 14:08:14 13 were or anybody had evaluated the cumulative impact of these 14:08:17 14 permits. 14:08:21 15 A. In terms of what those other impacts may be, I'm not 14:08:33 16 aware of what they may be. 14:08:42 17 Q. So basically no one, to your knowledge, has 14:08:48 18 evaluated the cumulative impacts of over 600 visitors a night 14:08:54 19 in North Kohala? 14:08:58 20 A. I'm not specifically aware of that, no. 14:09:08 21 Q. You spoke a little bit earlier about archeological 14:09:15 22 issues, and my last question is really about this statement in 14:09:20 23 your testimony that the project area is not associated with 14:09:23 24 nor valued by the native Hawaiian community to carry out 14:09:27 25 traditional practices or beliefs, and I'm curious how you came 14:09:31 114 1 to that conclusion. 14:09:35 2 A. I'm specifically referring to the six-acre area on 14:09:36 3 the property that is being -- that is part of the subsequent 14:09:40 4 application, and that area has not been utilized for religious 14:09:46 5 or cultural practices. 14:09:58 6 Q. Has not been or is not? 14:10:01 7 A. Well, is not. Well, is not being utilized for that 14:10:04 8 purpose. 14:10:09 9 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Thank you. I don't have any 14:10:14 10 further questions. 14:10:18 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 14:10:19 12 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Yes, I just have one quick 14:10:20 13 question. 14:10:22 14 Q. In the application you note a special use permit and 14:10:22 15 the SMA permit 417 and special permit 117, which is our 14:10:27 16 special use permits of 16 units, and this project is three 14:10:33 17 times that size. 14:10:39 18 To -- you justify something three times -- you use 14:10:47 19 ours as a precedent for a project that's three times the size, 14:10:50 20 correct? 14:10:54 21 A. Well, I'm saying that a similar use has been allowed 14:10:54 22 on land that is in close proximity to the property in 14:10:58 23 question. There are many similar characteristics and 14:11:04 24 basically we felt that the findings that allowed your 14:11:16 25 applications to be approved would be consistent with the 14:11:24 115 1 findings that should be determined for this particular 14:11:30 2 application as well. 14:11:33 3 Q. And was there any thought about the vast difference 14:11:36 4 in size? 14:11:40 5 A. Well, we're looking at actual -- I mean, if we look 14:11:44 6 at actual -- the potential impacts that can be foreseen 14:11:48 7 involve perhaps noise, traffic, and those kinds of 14:11:59 8 considerations, and we felt that given the large size of the 14:12:10 9 properties involved in that particular area, the distances, 14:12:15 10 the vegetation and those kinds of things, and the fact that 14:12:21 11 the traffic for this particular project is likely to be 14:12:31 12 controlled in terms of the majority, vast majority of the 14:12:38 13 users will be coming in groups, they will be utilizing 14:12:44 14 transportation that would bring the majority of participants 14:12:48 15 in with a minimum number of vehicles as opposed to individual 14:12:56 16 users of the facility that may be travelling on their own, but 14:13:03 17 group travel would be more organized and controlled. So the 14:13:09 18 impacts to be generated would be a lot less than if you're 14:13:16 19 dealing with individual travelers. So in that sense, you 14:13:23 20 know, from those perspectives we felt that the size is 14:13:27 21 something that could be accommodated in that particular area. 14:13:33 22 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 14:13:39 23 MR. YAMAMOTO: One question. 14:13:41 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 14:13:44 25 BY MR. YAMAMOTO: 14:13:44 116 1 Q. Mr. Nishimura, just for clarification purposes, the 14:13:45 2 six acres that's part of the application on Exhibit Planning 14:13:48 3 Department D, that's within the, I believe, the green? 14:13:54 4 A. It's outlined in blue. 14:13:59 5 Q. Is it blue or green? Blue? 14:14:03 6 THE WITNESS: Jeff? That's blue. 14:14:09 7 MR. YAMAMOTO: Blue. Sorry, I'm getting old. 14:14:11 8 Q. And that's where all the buildings are going to be 14:14:14 9 located; is that correct? 14:14:17 10 A. That's correct, as far as other than the private 14:14:18 11 residence and the agricultural structures that the Sullivans 14:14:24 12 may have, as far as the camp activities, all of the structures 14:14:31 13 are contained in the blue area. 14:14:37 14 Q. And the other types of activities that are going to 14:14:39 15 be part of this camp are supposed to be agriculturally 14:14:43 16 related, correct? 14:14:48 17 A. Primarily agriculturally related. There may be some 14:14:49 18 things that are for recreational purposes like the rope course 14:14:52 19 or the swimming pool, but all of those kinds of things are 14:14:56 20 within the area designated in blue. 14:15:00 21 MR. YAMAMOTO: Nothing further. 14:15:04 22 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 14:15:08 23 Q. I have a couple of questions. 14:15:08 24 In your experience, when a letter comes from the 14:15:11 25 State Historic Preservation Division after the Planning 14:15:15 117 1 Commission and recommends an archeological survey, what is the 14:15:19 2 practice? 14:15:24 3 A. Well, it's something that the Planning Department or 14:15:25 4 the Planning Commission may choose to add to the list of 14:15:28 5 conditions that are proposed. As the planning director's 14:15:34 6 recommendation indicates, you know, he is reserving the right 14:15:44 7 to alter the recommendation, which includes the conditions as 14:15:49 8 a result of additional testimony that is provided, and that 14:15:54 9 would include letters that come in after his recommendation 14:15:59 10 has been made. 14:16:04 11 Q. So your understanding of the requirement is that at 14:16:05 12 this point, it would be up to the planning director as to 14:16:11 13 whether or not an archeological survey would be required? 14:16:15 14 A. Or the planning. 14:16:19 15 Q. Planning Commission? 14:16:21 16 A. Or the Planning Commission. 14:16:22 17 Q. Yeah. So that in your Declaration you said that the 14:16:24 18 area was not -- the project area was not associated with no 14:16:32 19 value by the native Hawaiians, and then a point in questioning 14:16:37 20 by some of the parties you came to that conclusion because it 14:16:42 21 is not currently being utilized for that purpose. 14:16:45 22 Is that a correct restatement of your testimony? 14:16:47 23 A. Yes. 14:16:49 24 Q. And so did you do any research other than your 14:16:51 25 understanding, I'm assuming, from the property owners that 14:17:00 118 1 it's not currently being utilized? 14:17:04 2 A. Well, I have reviewed other archeological reports 14:17:10 3 for -- that have been done in the area, and that is something 14:17:13 4 that is for this particular area. It's not something that has 14:17:23 5 been pointed out as a resource area or that would be utilized. 14:17:31 6 Q. You were asked whether or not people would be hiking 14:17:41 7 off the project area, and you of course said people will be 14:17:45 8 hiking the many places to hike on the Big Island, but will 14:17:48 9 people be hiking or you think it's reasonable to expect that 14:17:53 10 people might be going into the gulches that are adjacent to 14:17:56 11 the project area? 14:18:00 12 A. I think that, you know, the applicant has indicated 14:18:01 13 that there will be some guidelines and some rules that will be 14:18:09 14 incorporated as part of their operation and that there will be 14:18:14 15 areas that they will -- they will be instructed to avoid and 14:18:26 16 to stay out of, and I think that they will, for safety 14:18:32 17 considerations, will make that a part of their guidelines that 14:18:38 18 they provide to all participants. 14:18:43 19 Q. So are you saying that it's your understanding 14:18:45 20 Applicant will place the gulches off limits -- 14:18:48 21 A. Yes. 14:18:51 22 Q. -- to the people who are on the premises? 14:18:51 23 A. Yes. 14:18:53 24 Q. Okay. Did you consult any native Hawaiians about 14:19:08 25 this specific project area and whether or not it would be 14:19:11 119 1 valued by native Hawaiians? 14:19:18 2 A. Well, we have consulted different Hawaiian 14:19:20 3 organizations regarding the proposed application, I mean the 14:19:23 4 application, itself, and the proposed uses being -- that are 14:19:30 5 being applied for. And we have received indications of 14:19:34 6 support and in fact have participated with some of these 14:19:42 7 organizations, or the applicants and their representatives 14:19:49 8 have participated with some of these organizations in 14:19:56 9 community activities and have not received any indication that 14:20:02 10 their application would present a problem. 14:20:07 11 Q. And what Hawaiian organizations did you consult 14:20:09 12 with? 14:20:14 13 A. Where's Jane? 14:20:17 14 I can come up with a list of them. I don't have 14:20:19 15 them right in front of me, but we do have a list of the 14:20:23 16 organizations that we did contact as part of the process 14:20:26 17 before the application was submitted. 14:20:30 18 Q. Okay. I see that there's a number of letters that 14:20:34 19 were submitted, but I don't -- I mean, I see that there are 14:20:38 20 some from, you know, churches like the Hualalai -- well, I 14:20:43 21 guess that's an academy, but -- so you're saying in addition 14:20:51 22 to these letters that were submitted in support? 14:20:54 23 A. Well, there have been, there have been individual 14:20:57 24 meetings with other people and organizations from the Hawaiian 14:21:04 25 community that did not submit letters and that we can make a 14:21:09 120 1 list of those groups or organizations available to you. 14:21:15 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Would that be all 14:21:19 3 right, Mr. Yamamoto -- 14:21:20 4 MR. YAMAMOTO: I have no objections. 14:21:21 5 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: -- if you folks do that? 14:21:22 6 Okay. We'll mark that as the next exhibit in order, 14:21:24 7 applicant -- what number will that be, then? 14:21:31 8 MR. YAMAMOTO: 18 14:21:43 9 (Applicant Exhibit No. 18 14:21:43 10 was marked for identification.) 14:21:46 11 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 14:21:47 12 Q. Okay. So if it were added as a condition that the 14:21:48 13 participants who come to stay at the camp were not to be 14:21:51 14 allowed in the gulches, that would be acceptable to the 14:21:56 15 applicant? 14:22:01 16 A. Yes. 14:22:02 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. I have no further 14:22:04 18 questions. 14:22:05 19 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Madame hearings officer? 14:22:07 20 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: I'm sorry. 14:22:09 21 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I have a couple questions for 14:22:10 22 clarification purposes. 14:22:11 23 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead. 14:22:12 24 BY MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: 14:22:13 25 Q. Referring to the property, this property was 14:22:14 121 1 historically used for sugarcane in the recent past? 14:22:17 2 A. Yes. 14:22:20 3 Q. Do you have any information on how many years it was 14:22:23 4 utilized in sugarcane? 14:22:26 5 A. Well, generally we just know that the North Kohala 14:22:35 6 region was utilized for sugar for over a hundred years. 14:22:41 7 Q. Okay. Is that one of the bases for saying that the 14:22:44 8 property and the particular site was not utilized in the past 14:22:48 9 for religious or cultural purposes because it was being 14:22:53 10 cultivated in sugar? 14:22:57 11 A. Yes. 14:22:58 12 Q. Okay. Was sugar abandoned in approximately the 14:22:59 13 1970s in North Kohala? 14:23:04 14 A. Yes. 14:23:06 15 Q. And then I thought I read somewhere that this was 14:23:06 16 subsequently Kohala Nursery. 14:23:10 17 A. Yes. A portion of the property was planted with 14:23:12 18 coconut trees and that was part of the recent activities. 14:23:19 19 Q. Do you have any information what happened to the 14:23:28 20 Kohala nursery? 14:23:30 21 A. It's still in operation. 14:23:31 22 Q. In a different site? 14:23:33 23 A. Well, they are not -- they are further mauka of this 14:23:34 24 property. 14:23:39 25 Q. So previously they included some of this property? 14:23:39 122 1 A. Yes. 14:23:42 2 Q. Okay. And from the time between Kohala sugar -- I 14:23:42 3 mean Kohala Nursery planting and the current owners, were 14:23:53 4 there any other intervening agricultural uses? 14:23:57 5 A. Not to my knowledge. 14:23:59 6 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Okay. Thank you. 14:24:00 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Any other questions? 14:24:06 8 Okay. Do you have any other -- oh, sorry. 14:24:09 9 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: I can give some information 14:24:11 10 if it would be useful. That land was sold -- 14:24:13 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: You know, when your -- 14:24:15 12 MR. YAMAMOTO: Testimony. 14:24:17 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Your time to testify is 14:24:18 14 coming. 14:24:19 15 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Okay. I was just going to 14:24:19 16 answer her question. 14:24:20 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Why don't you add that on. 14:24:22 18 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Okay. 14:24:23 19 MR. YAMAMOTO: The only other witness I have is I'd 14:24:24 20 like to call Mr. Blake just for clarification of some points 14:24:26 21 basically about the concern about the discrimination. 14:24:32 22 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: What will he testify to? 14:24:49 23 MR. YAMAMOTO: Basically I guess we would provide 14:24:51 24 the hearings officer with an example of, you know, there are, 14:24:58 25 for example, a lot of church groups, churches that sponsor 14:25:02 123 1 like, for example, a boy scout organization. So if let's say 14:25:06 2 the boy scout group were to apply for use of the premises, I 14:25:11 3 would ask him whether or not he would be precluded. And if it 14:25:17 4 was just for the boy scout camp, there wouldn't be a problem, 14:25:21 5 but if let's say it was a group that was going to advocate 14:25:25 6 worship of the devil or something of that nature, then it 14:25:33 7 probably would be something that would be precluded because it 14:25:37 8 is contrary to their faith belief. 14:25:40 9 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Well, I thought that he was 14:25:44 10 clear, Mr. Yamamoto -- 14:25:47 11 MR. YAMAMOTO: Okay. 14:25:49 12 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: -- when he testified before 14:25:49 13 that -- 14:25:50 14 JAMES BLAKE: I do have to clarify. I don't -- I do 14:25:51 15 think there's misinformation out there. 14:25:53 16 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay, but I don't think 14:25:55 17 that's -- I'm sorry, but it's not further clarification, but, 14:25:57 18 yeah, if you folks would like to provide further clarification 14:26:01 19 on that issue, you may do so. 14:26:05 20 MR. YAMAMOTO: Okay. Thank you. 14:26:07 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. You've already been 14:26:33 22 sworn under oath, Mr. Blake, so we don't need to reswear you. 14:26:37 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14:26:41 24 BY MR. YAMAMOTO: 14:26:41 25 Q. Mr. Blake, I guess I just need clarification in my 14:26:42 124 1 own mind about some of the discussion that transpired earlier 14:26:45 2 today about restricting groups from utilizing the facilities 14:26:49 3 if it were approved, and I guess I'd like to pose what we call 14:26:56 4 a hypothetical question. 14:27:03 5 If a church sponsors a -- let's say a boy scout 14:27:05 6 troop, and the boy scout troop wanted to go camping at the 14:27:09 7 campsite, and all they wanted to do was camp, would there be a 14:27:13 8 problem in processing their application? 14:27:19 9 A. No. 14:27:23 10 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 14:27:23 11 Q. Okay. Well, if it was a Buddhist group and they 14:27:28 12 wanted to go on the site and all they wanted to do was camp, 14:27:30 13 would that be a problem? 14:27:35 14 A. Yes. No, that would be a problem. We would accept 14:27:37 15 them. 14:27:40 16 Can I give an illustration to help clarify that? 14:27:40 17 Q. Okay. 14:27:43 18 A. I was born in North Africa, Muslim country. My 14:27:45 19 family lived there for 10 years. If I were to walk into a 14:27:49 20 mosque and start proclaiming Christianity, that would not be 14:27:52 21 an appropriate thing. Now, that would be disrespectful, too. 14:27:56 22 We're a faith based organization, make no reservations or 14:28:03 23 apologies for it. Respecting those differences, we understand 14:28:08 24 there's guidelines, and so if a Buddhist group came in and 14:28:12 25 taught Buddhism, that would be an inappropriate disrespectful 14:28:17 125 1 use. 14:28:23 2 If a Buddhist church brought a boy scout troop, we 14:28:23 3 would accept that because they are not teaching something 14:28:28 4 contrary to the faith, faith based organization in our 14:28:30 5 mission. That's what I wanted clarified. 14:28:35 6 Q. What if the Buddhist group brought a visiting group 14:28:38 7 of Tibetan monks who were here in Hawai'i and couldn't afford 14:28:41 8 to stay at the Mauna Kea or the Mauna Lani but could afford to 14:28:46 9 stay at your place, but, you know, what they wanted to do was 14:28:50 10 get back to nature and experience the beauty of your facility 14:28:52 11 and good work that the students have done in organic farming, 14:28:57 12 would that be permitted? 14:29:02 13 A. I think common sense and hospitality would rule in 14:29:03 14 those cases. 14:29:07 15 Q. So the answer is "yes"? 14:29:08 16 A. Depends on what's being taught. Is there 14:29:09 17 propagation of belief system contrary to our statement of 14:29:13 18 faith, that's the criterion that we've used for 60 years in 14:29:16 19 California. 14:29:22 20 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Well, I thought you were 14:29:22 21 clear before, so thank you for the further clarification. 14:29:23 22 BY MR. YAMAMOTO: 14:29:28 23 Q. And can I ask one final question? 14:29:29 24 A. Sure, yes. 14:29:31 25 Q. You heard the question asked of Mr. Nishimura with 14:29:32 126 1 regard to would the applicant accept a condition of banning 14:29:37 2 hiking in gulches. 14:29:41 3 Is that something that's acceptable to the 14:29:43 4 applicant? 14:29:45 5 A. Yes. The only clarification I have is what is 14:29:47 6 standard and customary with -- is that is the public 14:29:50 7 restricted from going into the gulches now? That's the 14:29:55 8 clarification I had. Why is that a restriction is maybe my 14:29:57 9 question? I'm not sure even why that's necessary, but. . . 14:30:01 10 Q. Even if it was for safety purposes? 14:30:04 11 A. For safety purposes, absolutely, yes. 14:30:06 12 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 14:30:06 13 Q. So, question: Would you extend that to the cliffs, 14:30:10 14 too, because that's a huge safety thing? 14:30:14 15 A. Obviously common sense rules again not letting 14:30:16 16 children go down to the cliffs over the ocean. 14:30:20 17 Q. So that was "yes," correct? 14:30:22 18 A. We would restrict access to cliffs by the ocean, 14:30:25 19 absolutely. 14:30:29 20 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 14:30:29 21 MR. YAMAMOTO: I have nothing further. 14:30:33 22 BY THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 14:30:36 23 Q. I guess the reason that the question came about also 14:30:39 24 was because of the possibility of archeological sites in the 14:30:44 25 gulches, and the need for or the non need for an archeological 14:30:50 127 1 survey, so I was just probing -- 14:30:56 2 A. I see. 14:30:59 3 Q. -- down that road for that reason as well, which 14:31:00 4 is -- 14:31:03 5 A. Um-hum. 14:31:03 6 Q. Which is would students be not allowed in there, and 14:31:04 7 your consultant said that that was what the plan was. 14:31:11 8 A. If it's necessary for as a condition for approval, 14:31:14 9 yeah, we would abide by that. 14:31:17 10 Does that answer your question? 14:31:21 11 Q. Yes, it does. 14:31:23 12 Well, what if a person -- what if the group came and 14:31:26 13 they weren't teaching beliefs but they were practicing their 14:31:31 14 religion? Let's say it was a Jewish group and they came and 14:31:34 15 it happened to fall on Friday night, which is their sabbath 14:31:38 16 and they wanted to, say, light their candles and say their 14:31:42 17 blessing. 14:31:46 18 Would that be something that would be -- would you 14:31:47 19 still have a hospitality and benchmark for something like that 14:31:50 20 if they were practicing but not teaching? 14:32:01 21 A. Being respectful of other faiths as we would want to 14:32:07 22 be respected, yes, same respect to be going both ways. 14:32:10 23 Q. So then that would be a permissible use on your 14:32:16 24 premises? I'm not saying you have to give permission in 14:32:21 25 advance. 14:32:24 128 1 A. Religious practices that would be contrary to our 14:32:24 2 beliefs would not be an appropriate use or respectful of our 14:32:29 3 belief system in that particular case I think you're 14:32:32 4 describing. Whereas if someone came there and I had had many 14:32:35 5 Muslims in my own home growing up as a child and bowed to 14:32:39 6 mecca, we didn't throw them out of the house and say, "You 14:32:43 7 can't stay here." 14:32:46 8 Now, there's -- so that's what I'm trying to say. 14:32:47 9 That if there is a planned activity where there is a teaching 14:32:49 10 time and it's teaching of faith contrary to the faith based 14:32:53 11 organization that I represent, then that would be outside the 14:32:58 12 confines of respectful adherence to our policies. Within 14:33:01 13 that, someone praying, you know, it's, like, not a problem. 14:33:04 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Thank you. 14:33:09 15 Do you have any other witnesses, Mr. Yamamoto? 14:33:13 16 MR. YAMAMOTO: No. Applicant I guess rests. 14:33:14 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Ms. Leithead-Todd? 14:33:18 18 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: The -- 14:33:24 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: We do have to be out of this 14:33:26 20 room by five. 14:33:28 21 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I was just going to say that. 14:33:29 22 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: And that clock is wrong, but 14:33:31 23 nevertheless -- 14:33:34 24 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I wanted to offer that the 14:33:34 25 Planning Department's background report and recommendations 14:33:36 129 1 would basically be what Mr. Darrow would testify to with a 14:33:42 2 couple of differences which I'd like him to address, and 14:33:47 3 that's basically on the department's recommendations because 14:33:54 4 some -- a couple of things have come up in since this was 14:33:59 5 originally done, and one -- 14:34:07 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Are those different than what 14:34:10 7 you submit, the recommendations? 14:34:11 8 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Yes, this is going to be a 14:34:15 9 little bit different. 14:34:17 10 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. 14:34:18 11 BY MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: 14:34:18 12 Q. And so, Mr. Darrow, on page 9 -- 14:34:18 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Should we swear Mr. Darrow 14:34:21 14 in? 14:34:24 15 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: He was. 14:34:24 16 MR. YAMAMOTO: He was. 14:34:25 17 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Sworn in this morning. 14:34:27 18 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Why don't you take 14:34:29 19 your seat. 14:34:31 20 BY MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: 14:34:32 21 Q. You can take your recommendations with you and I'd 14:34:32 22 like you to take a look at page 9 of the recommendations, and 14:34:34 23 basically with particular attention to conditions No. 10 and 14:34:39 24 14. Okay. 10 and 14 both refer to bottled and potable water. 14:34:44 25 So they basically duplicative? 14:34:54 130 1 A. Yes, they are. 14:34:56 2 Q. So the department wish to delete one of those and 14:34:57 3 perhaps consolidate those recommendations into No. 10? 14:35:05 4 A. Well, we would like to delete condition 14. 14:35:10 5 Q. Okay. And then do you have a -- 14:35:14 6 A. Thank you. 14:35:19 7 Q. -- replacement for condition 14 based on the letter 14:35:20 8 that came in from State Historic Preservation? 14:35:23 9 A. Yeah. As a result of the late comment letter that 14:35:28 10 we received from the Department of Land and Natural Resources 14:35:30 11 regarding an archeological inventory survey, we'd like to add 14:35:32 12 in a new condition 14, which would be -- which would state, 14:35:35 13 "The applicant shall submit an archeological inventory survey 14:35:40 14 report to the Department of Land and Natural Resources State 14:35:44 15 Historic Preservation Commission for review and approval prior 14:35:49 16 to the commencing of any land disturbance activity within the 14:35:53 17 project area. A copy of the approved report shall be 14:36:00 18 submitted to the Planning Department." This would be the new 14:36:04 19 condition 14. 14:36:07 20 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Anything else? 14:36:21 21 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No. That Mr. Darrow is 14:36:28 22 available for any questions on these two documents, and I 14:36:31 23 reserve the right to clarify any answers. 14:36:35 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Well, we've accepted 14:36:39 25 into evidence both of the county's submittals. 14:36:41 131 1 Mr. Yamamoto, do you have any questions? 14:36:52 2 MR. YAMAMOTO: Applicant has no questions. 14:36:55 3 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Ms. Sunderland? 14:36:57 4 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: (Shakes head.) 14:36:59 5 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Mr. Withington? No? 14:36:59 6 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: No. 14:37:02 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. So there's no 14:37:03 8 questions for you. 14:37:05 9 Do you have any other witnesses? 14:37:05 10 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: County has no other witnesses. 14:37:07 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland, you're next. 14:37:09 12 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Okay. Do I stay here or do 14:37:12 13 I go there? 14:37:14 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: We would have you go take the 14:37:14 15 witness stand. Why don't we take a very short break. 14:37:16 16 Do you have any other witnesses that you're going to 14:37:21 17 call besides yourself? 14:37:23 18 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Yes, Charlie Anderson, but 14:37:24 19 he had to leave at lunchtime and he's given me some things to 14:37:27 20 share. 14:37:31 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. And any other 14:37:32 22 witnesses? 14:37:33 23 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: No. 14:37:34 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Thank you. So let's 14:37:34 25 just take a five-minute stretching break and then we'll try to 14:37:37 132 1 proceed. 14:37:42 2 Off the record. 14:37:44 3 (Recess was taken from 2:37 to 2:45 p.m.) 14:37:44 4 JEAN SUNDERLAND, 14:37:44 5 Having been first duly sworn, 14:37:44 6 testified upon her oath as follows: 14:45:51 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland, since you are 14:45:51 8 the representative and the witness, we're just going to have 14:45:53 9 you give a narrative of your testimony. 14:45:56 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. First I'll give a 14:45:59 11 narrative of Charlie Anderson who is unable to remain here in 14:46:01 12 the afternoon. 14:46:06 13 There was two concerns that he was very much wanting 14:46:11 14 to share. One is that there were guidelines in the way that 14:46:14 15 things are supposed to be done. Both, all neighbors were to 14:46:26 16 receive notice of the hearing, which was on September 22nd. 14:46:33 17 Neither Mr. Anderson or Mr. Moody received any notice of that. 14:46:37 18 So that was -- that's a very definite requirement, and I left 14:46:42 19 it on my desk, the requirement, but I don't think I need to 14:46:49 20 let you all know that. You know that, that everyone needs to 14:46:56 21 be notified. So he was very much wanted to share that that 14:46:59 22 procedure did not get followed. 14:47:02 23 The second thing that concerns him very much is what 14:47:04 24 we've been talking about, and that is any young people coming 14:47:07 25 down to the cliffs, wandering off of their property onto our 14:47:11 133 1 adjacent property. It's a short walk. Those cliffs are 14:47:16 2 extremely dangerous with undercutting, and so I think with the 14:47:20 3 applicant's agreement that they would make guidelines to make 14:47:25 4 sure that no young people would be coming down onto our 14:47:29 5 property and particularly to the cliffs, that that is -- that 14:47:35 6 concern is addressed. 14:47:38 7 In the requirements, it says that adjacent 14:47:46 8 properties must not be adversely affected. We feel very 14:47:54 9 strongly, as many in this room feel, that it is necessary to 14:48:00 10 have camping facilities for youth. We want to make sure that 14:48:06 11 this special use permit application is in alignment with the 14:48:12 12 county codes and that it does not impact the adjacent 14:48:18 13 neighborhood and, particularly, us. 14:48:22 14 The planning director did specify in one of his 14:48:28 15 conditions that no amplified music or audible or speech 14:48:32 16 audible could be heard beyond the property line. I think 14:48:41 17 that's a great beginning. I think that there are things that 14:48:44 18 need to be done to make it easier for Redwood Alliance to 14:48:50 19 comply with this requirement. 14:48:55 20 We feel very strongly that the camping ground is way 14:48:57 21 too large. In the application they cited our special use 14:49:04 22 permits, which is a third the size, as justification or as a 14:49:11 23 precedent for theirs. I think that should they scale down 14:49:18 24 their proposal to 35, which is equitable to the size of our 14:49:24 25 retreat, that then if there is a -- then that precedent is 14:49:32 134 1 met. 14:49:40 2 In my briefs the thing that was very important was 14:49:44 3 that -- that the number of guests be reduced from 75 to 35 14:49:51 4 with seven cabins; that the -- let's see, the farm workers' 14:49:56 5 cottages be reduced from four to one. That is workable when 14:50:06 6 you reduce the number of guests. Should they do all of the 14:50:14 7 agriculture they are proposing, there is a process in the 14:50:20 8 Planning Department to apply for other farm workers' cottages 14:50:24 9 that could be done later. 14:50:27 10 Mr. Burns, right? Did I say your name correctly? 14:50:34 11 JAMES BLAKE: Blake. 14:50:39 12 THE WITNESS: Blake, excuse me, said it wasn't 14:50:41 13 economically viable to do such a small retreat. It is 14:50:42 14 economically viable. We applied for an amendment to our 14:50:47 15 special use permit for 20 campsite, for a site for 20 campers, 14:50:50 16 and I had worked out the numbers and it could be done. The 14:50:58 17 biggest expense they have is the swimming pool. The swimming 14:51:03 18 pool is expensive, but campground isn't. It's not expensive 14:51:09 19 to build a campground. So if they truly are nonprofit and if 14:51:14 20 this is a nonprofit venture, then it could work with 35 14:51:21 21 financially. It really can. 14:51:27 22 We pulled our -- we withdrew our application for 14:51:33 23 amendment for the same reason that they have in because we 14:51:39 24 also failed to notify an adjacent property owner. So we felt 14:51:45 25 it had the best integrity for us to withdraw our application 14:51:53 135 1 because we had made that mistake. I think that Redwood 14:51:57 2 Conference Center really needs to adjust their application and 14:52:02 3 notify Moody and Anderson and allow them also the opportunity 14:52:08 4 to have a say in this matter. 14:52:16 5 I know that they say that they sent something to Mr. 14:52:25 6 Moody, but Mr. Moody didn't receive it, and unfortunately, 14:52:29 7 none of the notices were sent by certified mail or return 14:52:35 8 receipt, so who knows what happened to that? And the attorney 14:52:39 9 did admit that Anderson was not sent notice. 14:52:44 10 Our other concerns have been addressed. We are 14:52:52 11 asking that configuration of the conference center be adjusted 14:52:57 12 slightly so that there is less impact upon the roadway. You 14:53:03 13 did receive this diagram with my Letter of Witness Statement 14:53:17 14 of December 13th. So that is in your record if you don't see 14:53:23 15 it too well. I'm asking that the configuration be moved up 14:53:28 16 and more together and less impact on the roadway. 14:53:35 17 The cost of the road has been addressed. My 14:53:46 18 understanding is that Redwood Conference Center has agreed to 14:53:51 19 also equally or equitably help with the maintenance of the 14:53:58 20 road; that the creation of the road and the maintenance of the 14:54:07 21 road is equally important. 14:54:11 22 I'm complete at this point, I believe. 14:54:22 23 Oh, I did want to say one thing. There was 14:54:27 24 questions about how long that land had been used for 14:54:30 25 sugarcane. Jeanie Lincoln Leoni (phonetic) -- I can't 14:54:34 136 1 remember who was asking that, but Jeanie Lincoln Leoni sold 14:54:39 2 that land to Kohala Corporation in 1929. 14:54:44 3 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: There's testimony in there that 14:54:48 4 it was in sugar from 1863 in the record. 14:54:50 5 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: We have the sales -- the 14:54:54 6 point of sales that that's when it was sold from them. 14:54:59 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: But do you know that the 14:55:02 8 people prior to the sale were not engaged in sugar? 14:55:04 9 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: No. I'm just saying that's 14:55:08 10 what we know is that that land was sold by Jeanie Lincoln 14:55:10 11 Leoni in 1929 to Kohala corporation -- not Kohala, Kohala 14:55:14 12 Sugar in those days. 14:55:20 13 I do want to stress, I think I said before that it's 14:55:31 14 inappropriate to use our special use permit as precedent for a 14:55:34 15 project that's three times the size. It is appropriate to use 14:55:41 16 it for some -- for a project that is of equal size. 14:55:42 17 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Yamamoto, do you 14:55:49 18 have any questions? 14:55:53 19 MR. YAMAMOTO: One moment. 14:55:54 20 No questions. 14:56:00 21 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Ms. Sunderland -- well, I'll let 14:56:02 22 Mr. Withington go first. 14:56:06 23 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I have no questions. 14:56:08 24 BY MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: 14:56:09 25 Q. I have some questions. I was looking -- I'm trying 14:56:09 137 1 to locate -- there was a list of the mailout to different 14:56:11 2 property owners for a different TMKs, and I noticed your name 14:56:18 3 showed up more than once on that mailout list. I'm just 14:56:27 4 trying to find it. And in particular -- 14:56:35 5 A. I noticed that as well. 14:56:41 6 Q. Yeah. And one of those TMKs is Mr. Anderson's 14:56:43 7 property, which is 14, I believe, huh? 14:56:48 8 A. Yes, that's correct. 14:56:50 9 Q. But aren't you also a co-owner of that property? 14:56:52 10 A. I am, but I did not get two letters. I got one. 14:56:56 11 Q. And isn't the mailing address for that property 14:57:00 12 listed as P.O. Box 63? 14:57:04 13 A. That is my address, correct. 14:57:07 14 Q. And that's your address, but that's also the address 14:57:11 15 given in the county records to mail any notice to TMK 14, 14:57:13 16 which is the one owned by Mr. Anderson as a co-owner, and 14:57:19 17 you're a co-owner in that property? 14:57:25 18 A. I am co-owner. On my tax records his address is 14:57:27 19 also on there. 14:57:30 20 Q. Because I notice that the list of surrounding 14:57:38 21 property owners, it says, "Robert Watkins et al., P.O. Box 14:57:42 22 63," and I guess -- and are you aware of the EWM Investments? 14:57:46 23 A. That's Ernie Moody, yes. 14:58:06 24 Q. Okay. Is Mr. Anderson a part owner in that 14:58:08 25 property? 14:58:10 138 1 A. He is not. 14:58:10 2 Q. He is not, okay. 14:58:11 3 A. And EWM Investments did not receive a notice. They 14:58:15 4 might have said they sent it, but, no, he did not receive it. 14:58:20 5 Q. And how would you know that EWM did not receive it? 14:58:24 6 A. He said so. 14:58:27 7 Q. Who said so? 14:58:27 8 A. Ernie Moody told Charlie Anderson he never received 14:58:28 9 notice. 14:58:32 10 Q. You know, are you aware that there is a letter 14:58:46 11 that -- from Carlsmith Ball stating that Mr. Anderson who is a 14:58:53 12 representative of EWM was notified? 14:59:04 13 A. I am aware of that letter. There was a 14:59:07 14 typographical error that was supposed to say was not notified. 14:59:11 15 He was not notified, nor did he show up at the meeting. I am 14:59:15 16 aware of that. I sent a copy of that to Charlie Anderson. He 14:59:21 17 said it was a typographical error here. 14:59:27 18 The interesting thing is that Mr. Anderson was sent 14:59:33 19 a notice in April, so they had his address. They sent the 14:59:38 20 preliminary to him in April. So why would they not have sent 14:59:43 21 him also a notice of the hearing? 14:59:49 22 Q. Well, you know, Ms. Sunderland, I don't know. I 15:00:02 23 guess you would have to ask maybe the applicant, but it's our 15:00:05 24 understanding that the same mailing was used for all the 15:00:08 25 notices, so it should have gone to everybody. 15:00:11 139 1 A. It should have, you're right. 15:00:13 2 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Okay. Thank you. 15:00:15 3 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Mr. Withington? 15:00:20 4 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: No questions. 15:00:21 5 MR. YAMAMOTO: No questions. 15:00:22 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: I just have a couple of 15:00:24 7 questions. 15:00:25 8 Q. So you're partners with Mr. Anderson; is that 15:00:25 9 correct? 15:00:30 10 A. 5-4-9-14, correct. 15:00:30 11 Q. And you and he have discussed this application by 15:00:32 12 Alliance; is that right? 15:00:37 13 A. Correct. 15:00:40 14 Q. And he is in agreement with you on the points that 15:00:40 15 you have raised today? 15:00:46 16 A. Yes. 15:00:47 17 Q. And on other occasions? 15:00:48 18 A. Yes. 15:00:50 19 Q. And you said that one of his concerns was addressed 15:00:51 20 by the testimony that you heard today from Mr. Blake on the 15:00:57 21 cliffs; is that right? 15:01:02 22 A. That's correct. 15:01:03 23 Q. And other than that, you indicated that his concern 15:01:03 24 was that he didn't receive proper notice, right? 15:01:07 25 A. That's correct. 15:01:10 140 1 Q. Does he -- to your knowledge does he have any other 15:01:10 2 concerns other than what you personally have testified to 15:01:14 3 today and that you have put in writing and submitted? 15:01:18 4 A. To my knowledge, his biggest concern, as was I, is 15:01:20 5 the size of the conference center. 15:01:24 6 Q. Okay. So other than what you've expressed today and 15:01:29 7 submitted in writing today in this process, there is, to your 15:01:32 8 knowledge, nothing else Mr. Anderson -- 15:01:39 9 A. To my knowledge he has not expressed anything else 15:01:41 10 to me. 15:01:44 11 Q. Okay. With regard to Mr. Moody, you know that he 15:01:45 12 did ask to be able to come today and submit testimony in the 15:01:48 13 letter we received from Carlsmith? You understand? 15:01:54 14 A. I understand that, yes. 15:01:57 15 Q. And you saw that we did allow for public testimony 15:01:58 16 today and so, had he come, we certainly, I certainly would 15:02:01 17 have permitted him to testify and express his concerns? Do 15:02:07 18 you understand that? 15:02:12 19 A. Was he notified of that? 15:02:12 20 Q. I don't know, but he does have a lawyer, Carlsmith 15:02:15 21 Ball, and they will certainly have the rules of proceeding, so 15:02:20 22 I don't know if he was aware of that or not because I've never 15:02:23 23 talked to him. I've never met him. 15:02:25 24 But did he express any particular concerns to you? 15:02:27 25 A. Not to me. 15:02:33 141 1 Q. Other than the fact that he wasn't properly 15:02:33 2 notified? 15:02:36 3 A. Only the concerns that -- nothing different than 15:02:36 4 what has been stated, that's correct. 15:02:37 5 Q. Okay. So to your knowledge, his concerns were the 15:02:40 6 same ones that you've expressed both orally and in writing; is 15:02:44 7 that right? 15:02:48 8 A. That's all I know about. 15:02:48 9 Q. Okay. What do you charge your guests for a stay at 15:02:52 10 night? 15:02:56 11 A. We aren't yet open. 15:02:57 12 Q. Oh. What is your projection? 15:02:58 13 A. Projection. We will have half of our units are 15:03:00 14 small yurts, and they are comparable to this. They are a 15:03:07 15 hundred dollars a night. And then half of our units are more 15:03:12 16 upscale and they will be about 250 a night. 15:03:17 17 Q. Okay. So how many? You said you would have 35 at 15:03:20 18 your -- 15:03:25 19 A. Sixteen. 15:03:25 20 Q. -- retreat, right? 15:03:26 21 A. Actually we have 16 rooms. 15:03:27 22 Q. But you said that you would have 35 people. 15:03:29 23 A. No. What I said was that 35 would be closer to the 15:03:32 24 same number that we have. 15:03:35 25 Q. Okay. So out of the 35, how would it break down in 15:03:37 142 1 terms of a hundred, $250, like half -- 15:03:45 2 A. No, I'm sorry, we don't have 35. We have 32. 15:03:48 3 Q. Oh, okay. 15:03:51 4 A. What I said is should they decrease, scale down 15:03:52 5 their project -- 15:03:56 6 Q. I see. 15:03:57 7 A. -- to be 35. That's closer to the size that we 15:03:58 8 have. 15:04:02 9 Q. Okay. So if you have 32, how many of the 32 would 15:04:02 10 be charged a hundred and how many of the 32 -- 15:04:05 11 A. It's half and half. 15:04:07 12 Q. And how many acres is your site? 15:04:10 13 A. In -- that we're farming? 15:04:16 14 Q. That you got your permit. 15:04:18 15 A. Oh, five, five acres. 15:04:20 16 Q. Five acres, okay. 15:04:21 17 Do you have any gulches on your property? 15:04:23 18 A. Um-hum. (Witness nods head.) 15:04:26 19 Q. And have you ever come across any archeological 15:04:27 20 sites -- 15:04:30 21 A. Absolutely. 15:04:31 22 Q. -- in the gulches? 15:04:31 23 A. Yes. 15:04:33 24 Q. And have you ever -- did you do an archeological 15:04:35 25 survey? 15:04:38 143 1 A. We did. 15:04:38 2 Q. And what did the survey find? 15:04:42 3 A. There -- nothing was found in the area that we've 15:04:45 4 chosen for the buildings. 15:04:50 5 Q. But the survey didn't do any additional work in the 15:04:53 6 gulches? 15:04:56 7 A. There are some archeological sites in the gulches 15:04:58 8 and there's also a grave site. 15:05:01 9 Q. There is a grave site? 15:05:08 10 A. In the gulch, yes. 15:05:09 11 Q. And did the archeological survey identify those, or 15:05:10 12 is that something you've done on your own? 15:05:13 13 A. Those sites were -- we did not particularly have to 15:05:15 14 do it for that with that archeological survey because it had 15:05:19 15 already been done previously. 15:05:24 16 Q. I see. 15:05:27 17 A. In 1996, I believe. 15:05:28 18 Q. Do you know if that survey included the gulches that 15:05:33 19 the Sullivans own? 15:05:37 20 A. They did not go up that high, no. It was done by 15:05:38 21 Surety Kohala, and it was primarily along the coast, back from 15:05:50 22 the coast. 15:05:57 23 Q. Is that how you knew where the birthing stone was? 15:05:58 24 A. No. I knew that from my kumu who took me there 15:06:02 25 30 years ago. 15:06:09 144 1 Q. And do you plan to have any rules at your retreat 15:06:13 2 regarding access to the gulches? 15:06:20 3 A. We have guidelines, yes. 15:06:24 4 Q. And what are those? 15:06:26 5 A. That the guests will remain with the pathways as 15:06:29 6 they have been designated. 15:06:37 7 Q. And do you inform them that there are archeological 15:06:40 8 sites in the vicinity? 15:06:43 9 A. Um-hum. 15:06:44 10 Q. And they should treat them -- 15:06:45 11 A. Absolutely. 15:06:47 12 Q. -- with respect? 15:06:47 13 A. Absolutely. 15:06:48 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Any further questions? 15:06:51 15 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I had a couple questions on the 15:06:54 16 archeological site, but I think Mr. Yamamoto wants to go 15:06:55 17 first. 15:07:02 18 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Do you have any? Did you 15:07:02 19 want to ask any questions? 15:07:05 20 MR. YAMAMOTO: One moment. Just one follow-up 15:07:10 21 question. 15:07:30 22 Q. You are going to have guidelines as well regarding 15:07:32 23 walking around the edge of cliffs? 15:07:35 24 A. Oh, absolutely, but and our -- but we have a small 15:07:38 25 group of people, and we have that kind of monitoring of the 15:07:48 145 1 people that are on property. Absolutely, we'll have more than 15:07:54 2 guidelines. 15:07:59 3 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Any further questions, Ms. 15:08:04 4 Leithead-Todd? 15:08:06 5 BY MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: 15:08:08 6 Q. Okay. Ms. Sunderland, your property is actually on 15:08:08 7 the coast? 15:08:11 8 A. It is. 15:08:11 9 Q. Okay. So your property is actually next to the 15:08:12 10 cliffs? 15:08:14 11 A. That's correct. 15:08:14 12 Q. As opposed to the project site, which is mauka -- 15:08:15 13 A. That's right. 15:08:18 14 Q. -- of your property? 15:08:19 15 I was flipping through some records, and for your 15:08:20 16 property you had an archeological assessment done by 15:08:25 17 Hahn (phonetic) -- 15:08:29 18 A. That's correct. 15:08:29 19 Q. -- and Associates? 15:08:30 20 A. Um-hum. 15:08:31 21 Q. Was that done just for the five-acre site that is 15:08:32 22 the subject of your special permit? 15:08:37 23 A. That's correct. 15:08:39 24 Q. Okay. And your site is below the shoreline 15:08:40 25 management? 15:08:46 146 1 A. That's correct. 15:08:47 2 Q. Area. So you had to get a shoreline management 15:08:47 3 permit, also? 15:08:50 4 A. That's correct. 15:08:50 5 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Okay. I think that addresses 15:08:58 6 the main issues that I had. 15:08:59 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Mr. Withington? 15:09:01 8 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 15:09:03 9 Q. Are portions of your project area within the 15:09:04 10 conservation district? 15:09:07 11 A. We have land in the conservation zone, but, no, none 15:09:09 12 of the project is in the conservation zone. 15:09:13 13 Q. Does your project have any impact or any activity 15:09:16 14 which occurs in the conservation district? 15:09:22 15 A. I guess I don't know what that question -- what do 15:09:25 16 you mean? No. 15:09:31 17 Q. Do people use it for access to the site or -- 15:09:31 18 A. No. 15:09:36 19 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. No questions. 15:09:37 20 MR. YAMAMOTO: Nothing further. 15:09:39 21 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Thank you very much, 15:09:40 22 Ms. Sunderland. 15:09:41 23 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 15:09:45 24 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Mr. Withington, do you have 15:09:45 25 any witnesses to call? 15:09:48 147 1 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: I do have one. Kako'o calls 15:09:48 2 Mike Isaacs. 15:09:54 3 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He just stepped out. 15:09:56 4 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. You submitted 15:09:58 5 testimony from Gail Byrne, Mike Isaacs. 15:09:59 6 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Mark Grandoni and Joe 15:10:09 7 Carvalho. 15:10:12 8 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So I will accept all of these 15:10:15 9 into evidence. 15:10:17 10 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Thank you. 15:10:18 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: And you may call your 15:10:21 12 witness. 15:10:23 13 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Kako'o calls Mr. Mike 15:10:23 14 Isaacs. 15:10:27 15 MIKE ISAACS, 15:10:27 16 Having been first duly sworn, 15:10:27 17 testified upon his oath as follows: 15:10:42 18 BY INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: 15:10:42 19 Q. Mr. Isaacs, how long have you lived in North Kohala? 15:10:42 20 A. My family, myself have lived there forever. I am 15:10:46 21 native Hawaiian. My family goes back, I've been told by older 15:10:51 22 kupunas, about to the first canoes. I don't know how far back 15:10:57 23 that is, but, yes, my family has been there for a long, long 15:11:03 24 time. 15:11:08 25 Q. How long have you been active in planning and 15:11:10 148 1 preservation of North Kohala? 15:11:15 2 A. Well, really active. Got started in 2000. When the 15:11:17 3 general plan surfaced we started getting involved in the 15:11:26 4 community because they didn't understand what the general plan 15:11:30 5 was about and how important it was to their daily lives. 15:11:33 6 Either did I. Once I found out (nonverbal response), we got 15:11:39 7 involved. 15:11:46 8 Q. Do you currently practice traditional Hawaiian 15:11:46 9 beliefs or other traditional practices? 15:11:50 10 A. Yes. In fact, just came back from a conference on 15:11:52 11 O'ahu, started last year, of practitioners from all islands in 15:11:57 12 the State of Hawai'i, very intense, and I would say the 15:12:04 13 results of that are now being presented before the 15:12:11 14 legislature. What we hope to happen is that the things that 15:12:15 15 we came up with we could put into law, kahu moku, or where 15:12:19 16 each ahupua'a will have a representative and can speak and 15:12:29 17 make decisions for that particular property. It's very far 15:12:33 18 reaching and we hope to see good results. We have some 15:12:38 19 support in the legislature, so we'll see. A lot of work went 15:12:44 20 into it, a lot of good people. 15:12:48 21 Q. As a native Hawaiian and in light of these cultural 15:12:51 22 practices and beliefs, do you have any value in the lands in 15:12:57 23 which the subject area is located? 15:12:59 24 A. Oh, gosh, you know, to explain that to people who 15:13:01 25 really don't understand, it's very hard. It comes from in 15:13:10 149 1 here (indicating), the na'au. You are part of the land, and 15:13:13 2 that's why I really was offended by that statement made that 15:13:19 3 the Hawaiians don't value this piece of property. That that 15:13:24 4 is -- I'm having a hard time with that. That is (nonverbal 15:13:33 5 response). 15:13:38 6 Q. Do you have any personal history with the land in 15:13:38 7 this area? 15:13:43 8 A. Definitely. Right now we have the freedom of the 15:13:44 9 coast, freedom to move anywhere anytime we wanted to. And we 15:13:49 10 didn't have the, how you say, things you have today like ATVs, 15:13:53 11 cars, trucks. We did it on foot, on horseback and especially 15:13:59 12 in this particular area, the coastline. It was our way of 15:14:04 13 going back, back to what we used to do, running from the 15:14:09 14 kupunas and such. The ocean is our, you know, our sustenance, 15:14:14 15 and to be disconnected from it, it's hard, very hard. 15:14:19 16 Q. All right. Do you have any knowledge of the 15:14:26 17 archeological significance of the area in question? 15:14:31 18 A. Well, as they stated earlier, a lot of it was 15:14:35 19 destroyed years ago by the plantation, but if you look and you 15:14:39 20 know what you're looking for, there is still a lot there. For 15:14:43 21 any person to say there's not, they don't know what they are 15:14:46 22 talking about. They don't have the eyes. They don't have the 15:14:49 23 heart. And that's basically what you need to find these 15:14:52 24 things. It's like if you're pono, they will show themselves. 15:14:56 25 If you're not, they won't. 15:15:05 150 1 Q. Given what you've heard today, do you feel that you 15:15:10 2 would be free to continue to practice your traditional beliefs 15:15:13 3 on the subject property? 15:15:17 4 A. Well, initially what I heard was inclusive, meaning 15:15:18 5 open to anyone, giving back, which, you know, that's in 15:15:24 6 keeping with what Kohala is about. And as the conversation 15:15:30 7 moved on, I was left with this feeling that this is not 15:15:33 8 inclusive but very exclusive. Because as a practitioner 15:15:37 9 teaching what we know, what we live is part of it. Try to 15:15:44 10 separate it and say, "No, you cannot do that, but you can come 15:15:50 11 here if you don't do that," it doesn't work. So I, myself, as 15:15:53 12 a practitioner or any other Hawaiian could never be invited 15:15:56 13 there because it's not in keeping with what they are about, 15:16:01 14 that's not pono, at all, because we don't do that to anyone. 15:16:05 15 And that's what I took this conversation; it's very exclusive, 15:16:12 16 very exclusive. 15:16:18 17 Q. The applicant also states that the purpose of the 15:16:22 18 proposed project is the benefit of the local community, and do 15:16:26 19 you feel that you or your community would be directly 15:16:35 20 benefited from the project? 15:16:46 21 A. You know, that's a very difficult question because 15:16:46 22 I've read their material and there is a lot of allusions, when 15:16:46 23 they allude to this, they allude to that. And I've been very 15:16:49 24 involved with the high school, anything I can do to help the 15:16:54 25 kids. And I know the people in our community that directly 15:16:57 151 1 impact these kids in a super good way, and these are people 15:17:03 2 that I help. I would do anything to help them, to help the 15:17:07 3 kids, but I don't see how this situation can impact the kids 15:17:12 4 of Kohala that much, to be very honest. These people who I 15:17:19 5 help, they are extra special people. So when I look at a 15:17:27 6 person like myself, Ms. Sunderland, I grade them by looking at 15:17:31 7 the people I've had the opportunity to work with, and I don't 15:17:37 8 see anything, see how these people can compare to these. 15:17:42 9 That's my own honest opinion. 15:17:45 10 I don't know you folks that well, but just listening 15:17:48 11 to the way you folks talking and stuff, I'll be very honest, 15:17:52 12 I'm not impressed. I don't see anything. 15:17:56 13 Q. Given your background with community development and 15:18:05 14 planning and your work on the current iteration of the North 15:18:09 15 Kohala Community Development Plan, do you have any sense of 15:18:15 16 what the cumulative impacts of these special permits for 15:18:19 17 overnight accommodation are in North Kohala? 15:18:22 18 A. Well, number one, it's taking away from, you know, 15:18:25 19 what the land is there for, but basically, I think it's moving 15:18:32 20 towards for the CDP. What's happening with the CDP in North 15:18:41 21 Kohala is that these people want to preserve the lands for 15:18:45 22 agriculture. That 84 CDP was done at a time when people was 15:18:47 23 desperate for jobs, and retreats and resorts would come by, 15:18:55 24 hopefully, but they never understood or weren't sophisticated 15:19:01 25 enough to understand the long-term or cumulative effects once 15:19:05 152 1 they started coming on board. Right now I can honestly say 15:19:11 2 that the majority of people do not want retreat resorts in 15:19:15 3 North Kohala. 15:19:19 4 And I'm very -- you know, I'm in touch with these 15:19:20 5 people. I grew up there. I know these people. Like that 84 15:19:21 6 CDP, I mean, North Kohala people are very proud, independent. 15:19:27 7 They don't want to go on the dole. They would have agreed to 15:19:35 8 anything. 15:19:39 9 Times have changed. That is no longer the case. 15:19:40 10 They accepted the fact that they have to work outside of 15:19:44 11 Kohala. Now they don't want these retreat resorts because now 15:19:47 12 they understand they don't provide good jobs, meaning good 15:19:51 13 pay, fringes and such, and that it would be taking away from 15:19:57 14 the community, not adding to. 15:20:01 15 Q. As you stated earlier, support for youth development 15:20:07 16 groups and activities like this, given your understanding of 15:20:11 17 the area and activities related to this, are there other 15:20:16 18 options for youth retreats and camps in North Kohala? 15:20:21 19 A. Camping? 15:20:26 20 Q. Well, currently? 15:20:27 21 A. Boundless. We have Pololu. Keokea is open, and 15:20:28 22 Mahukona, itself, not the public park area, but by the 15:20:33 23 navigation heiau, and the heiau, what's the other one, Mauna 15:20:37 24 Lei (phonetic), there is a beautiful area that's open to any 15:20:43 25 group that wants to use it. You just have to have the city 15:20:45 153 1 issue a corporation. And then you have the Kohala coast that 15:20:50 2 has been used for generations by people for camping. So there 15:20:52 3 is a lot of open space for camping in Kohala. 15:20:57 4 Kohala kids, the ones I know, wouldn't think of 15:21:00 5 going to camping situation like this because they have the 15:21:08 6 freedom to go to the mountains and the ocean and do their own, 15:21:11 7 and I don't know. I keep trying to think of a way something 15:21:16 8 like this can benefit, but our kids, like I said, were 15:21:21 9 independent. I just can't see them getting into a situation, 15:21:26 10 especially because of the parameters set by Mr. Blake, that I 15:21:32 11 don't see that as a plus. 15:21:40 12 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Thank you. I have no 15:21:44 13 further questions. 15:21:46 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Thank you. Anybody 15:21:47 15 else have any questions? Mr. Yamamoto? 15:21:50 16 BY MR. YAMAMOTO: 15:22:00 17 Q. Your family has which -- ties to which ahupua'a in 15:22:00 18 Kohala? 15:22:05 19 A. We were located right in Ka'au pu'u (phonetic). 15:22:06 20 Q. But that's not part of this ahupua'a, right? 15:22:11 21 A. No. 15:22:14 22 Q. Your family's one is more north, south? 15:22:21 23 A. Kona. 15:22:26 24 Q. Huh? 15:22:27 25 A. More towards Kona. 15:22:28 154 1 Q. Okay. 15:22:31 2 A. But not far from this parcel I have family buried 15:22:35 3 there. 15:22:44 4 Q. And you were here when Mrs. Bowman testified, right? 15:22:50 5 A. Yes. 15:22:53 6 Q. And you heard what she -- she said about the kinds 15:22:53 7 of kids she gets involved with and, I guess, 7th, 8th grade 15:22:58 8 kids? 15:23:03 9 A. Um-hum. 15:23:03 10 Q. And so your opinion is a little bit different from 15:23:05 11 Mrs. Bowman's? 15:23:08 12 A. No. I don't know that much about her project, to be 15:23:09 13 very honest, because I work with the older kids, the ones I 15:23:12 14 guess she would consider more at risk than the young ones. 15:23:15 15 Although it's a good way to do it, to start with the young, 15:23:21 16 I've always felt that, but, you know, you can only do so much. 15:23:24 17 You can't cover everything, so we do the best we can, and to 15:23:27 18 me, the ones that are more at risk are the older ones. 15:23:31 19 Q. They are usually -- the older ones the harder to 15:23:36 20 deal with? 15:23:40 21 A. But the good base starts at the younger age, so 15:23:41 22 that's nice that she's doing that, and we reinforce what we're 15:23:44 23 doing on the topside. 15:23:47 24 MR. YAMAMOTO: Nothing further. 15:23:48 25 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Leithead-Todd? 15:23:49 155 1 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No questions. 15:23:52 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 15:23:53 3 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Nothing. 15:23:54 4 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Anything further, Mr. 15:23:55 5 Withington? 15:23:58 6 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: (Shakes head.) 15:23:58 7 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Thank you very much, Mr. 15:23:59 8 Isaacs. 15:24:00 9 Do you have any other witnesses, Mr. Withington? 15:24:01 10 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: No. 15:24:03 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. This concludes the 15:24:04 12 hearing accept that Mr. Yamamoto is going to submit a list of 15:24:06 13 native Hawaiian organizations that the applicant consulted 15:24:11 14 with, and we're going to mark that as your next exhibit. 15:24:15 15 MR. YAMAMOTO: 18. 15:24:19 16 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: 18. 15:24:20 17 (Applicant Exhibit No. 18 15:24:25 18 was marked for identification.) 15:24:25 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: And was the list of mailings, 15:24:25 20 is that part of the record? 15:24:34 21 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I sure -- I didn't, you know, 15:24:38 22 tab it, but I was sure that it was somewhere in the record to 15:24:42 23 who they had mailed it to, and it was identified by TMK 15:24:50 24 number, I thought. 15:24:55 25 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. If it's not part of 15:24:56 156 1 the record, I would request that you submit it as the county 15:24:58 2 exhibit next in order, which would be EE. Okay, they are on 15:25:02 3 double. 15:25:13 4 MR. YAMAMOTO: No, no, E. 15:25:14 5 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: I see, E. After this we go 15:25:17 6 A, B, C, D, and then it will be E? 15:25:19 7 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: E. 15:25:22 8 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So why don't you just submit 15:25:23 9 it in as E, whether it's in there or not, so everybody will 15:25:25 10 know where it is. 15:25:29 11 (County Exhibit E 15:25:29 12 was marked for identification.) 15:25:30 13 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Was there any other evidence 15:25:30 14 that was referred to, exhibits that were referred to that 15:25:32 15 weren't marked and admitted? 15:25:37 16 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Well, we did refer to the 15:25:39 17 County's Real Property Listing which shows the mailing address 15:25:42 18 as P.O. Box 63 for that TMK. 15:25:48 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So would you submit that as 15:25:51 20 the next exhibit, which I guess would be F? 15:25:53 21 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: F. 15:25:56 22 (County Exhibit F 15:25:56 23 was marked for identification.) 15:25:59 24 MR. YAMAMOTO: I guess the other question I have is 15:25:59 25 should we submit as -- I don't know whether it's the County's 15:26:01 157 1 or whatever -- the letter from Carlsmith, even though I know 15:26:05 2 Ms. Sunderland testified that it is a typo, we do have a 15:26:11 3 letter from the Carlsmith's office regarding EWM. 15:26:14 4 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Submit that as the next 15:26:18 5 exhibit from the County because the letter is addressed to Mr. 15:26:20 6 Hayashi as -- 15:26:25 7 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: G. 15:26:25 8 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: As Exhibit G. 15:26:26 9 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: I think it's the January 17th 15:26:27 10 letter. 15:26:29 11 MR. YAMAMOTO: Yeah. 15:26:30 12 (County Exhibit G 15:26:30 13 was marked for identification.) 15:26:32 14 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Any other miscellaneous 15:26:32 15 items? 15:26:37 16 Ms. Sunderland, your map that you put up there is 15:26:40 17 attached to your testimony? 15:26:44 18 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: Yes. 15:26:46 19 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Which we have admitted as 15:26:46 20 part of the record already. 15:26:49 21 Okay. Well, that concludes the hearing. 15:26:54 22 Next I'm going to ask people to submit Proposed 15:26:56 23 Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law. 15:26:59 24 How long do you think you folks need to do that? 15:27:06 25 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: Well, we need the transcript 15:27:09 158 1 first. 15:27:11 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Madame court reporter, how 15:27:13 3 long do you think it will take you to prepare the transcript. 15:27:16 4 THE REPORTER: Normal turn around time is ten 15:27:23 5 calendar days. 15:27:26 6 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: So why don't we go off the 15:27:27 7 record and figure out the schedule and go back on the record. 15:27:29 8 (Off-the-record discussion was held.) 15:27:34 9 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. Back on the record. 15:32:36 10 Okay. March 13th will be the date for Proposed 15:32:38 11 Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law. On or before 15:32:44 12 April 12th I will issue a ruling. Fifteen days after service 15:32:53 13 of my ruling the parties may file their objections, 15:32:59 14 criticisms, comments, alternative proposed findings, and then 15:33:05 15 within seven days after that, the parties may file additional 15:33:10 16 comments supporting the ruling of the hearings officer, 15:33:17 17 further commenting, and we have agreed, the parties have all 15:33:24 18 agreed that service will be complete upon e-mail, and that the 15:33:28 19 hard copy, nevertheless, will be forwarded to Mr. Hayashi to 15:33:34 20 make sure that the Planning Department has the complete 15:33:38 21 record. 15:33:42 22 Are there any -- Mr. Yamamoto, do you agree with 15:33:43 23 that? 15:33:47 24 MR. YAMAMOTO: I have no objections. 15:33:48 25 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Ms. Sunderland? 15:33:50 159 1 INTERVENOR SUNDERLAND: (Nods head.) I agree. 15:33:51 2 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Mr. Withington? 15:33:54 3 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Would we be expected to 15:33:55 4 forward a hard copy ourselves, or would you do that? 15:33:57 5 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: No. You will be expected to 15:33:59 6 forward a hard copy yourself. 15:34:01 7 INTERVENOR WITHINGTON: Okay. I understand and 15:34:03 8 agree. 15:34:05 9 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: Okay. And -- 15:34:05 10 MS. LEITHEAD-TODD: No objections. 15:34:06 11 THE HEARINGS OFFICER: That concludes the hearing 15:34:07 12 for today. Thank you all very much, for your participation 15:34:08 13 and your courteous conduct. 15:34:13 14 (Whereupon the proceedings 15:34:16 15 were concluded at 3:34 p.m.) 15:34:17 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 160 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 STATE OF HAWAII ) 3 )ss. 4 CITY AND COUNTY OF HONOLULU ) 5 I, B. KANOELANI COCKETT, CSR, Notary Public, 6 State of Hawai'i, do hereby certify; 7 That on February 6th, 2007, at 10:00 a.m. that 8 the deposition was taken down by me in machine shorthand 9 and was thereafter reduced to typewritten form under my 10 supervision; that the foregoing represents, to the 11 best of my ability, a true and correct transcript of the 12 proceedings had in the foregoing matter. 13 I further certify that I am not an attorney for 14 any of the parties hereto, nor in any way concerned with 15 the cause. 16 Dated this 20th of February 2007 in Honolulu, 17 Hawai'i. 18 19 20 21 _________________________________ 22 B. KANOELANI COCKETT, 23 HI CSR NO. 379, CA CSR No. 7995 24 Notary Public, State of Hawai'i 25 My commission expires: February 19th, 2009